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Replies:
226
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Last Post:
Nov 6, 2007 4:53 PM
by: Derek Cicero
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Ian Murdock
Ian.Murdock@Sun.COM
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Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 30, 2007 8:40 PM
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When Project Indiana was first conceived, it was envisioned to be a
community distribution of OpenSolaris--in other words, built by the
community and called OpenSolaris [1]. My basic observation, as someone
who came into the OpenSolaris community from the outside - even perhaps
from the competition - and who represents the target market this
community needs to reach was this: That the packaging and presentation
of OpenSolaris as it stands today represents a barrier to adoption and,
thus, an obstacle to growing the OpenSolaris community and bringing in
new users. To lower these barriers, OpenSolaris needs to be more than
just the code base. It needs to be a binary that users can easily
download and install to get easy access to OpenSolaris technology. Put
another way, as I said in a blog post in June, we need to have a
better answer to the question, “Where do I download OpenSolaris?” [2].
[1]
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2007-May/028871.html
[2] http://ianmurdock.com/2007/06/08/where-do-i-download-opensolaris/
Since that time, there has been much debate about what the Project
Indiana distribution should be called. Over the past few weeks,
the conversation on the lists has centered around the OpenSolaris
trademark, and whether or not Indiana, or any other distribution,
should have the right/privilege to carry the moniker "OpenSolaris".
I believe the debate fundamentally comes down to a question of
identity: Is OpenSolaris a code base that others (including Sun)
use as the basis for their operating environments, or is OpenSolaris an
operating environment in its own right? Given that much of the world
already assumes OpenSolaris is an operating environment - namely the
community version of Solaris - one answer to that question is clear to
me: OpenSolaris MUST be something new users can download and install.
Indiana is the first, and so far only, distribution created on
OpenSolaris.org containing only bits from other OpenSolaris
projects. It is, in a sense, a delivery vehicle for their
work. For all intents and purposes Indiana is OpenSolaris in
binary form. For all of the discussion that has gone on
around the name, very few people seem to disagree with this.
So, in a few days, the OpenSolaris community's Indiana project
will be releasing their first developer preview, and those
bits will carry the name "OpenSolaris Developer Preview". This will
no doubt be a controversial decision in some circles, but
in my view, it is imperative for our community to grow and prosper.
Does that mean OpenSolaris can't also be a code base that others
use as the basis for their own distros? Of course they can still
use it. But a core value of Solaris has always been compatibility,
so we (Sun), as the steward of the OpenSolaris trademark, have
hesitated to allow other distros to use the OpenSolaris brand
to identify themselves. With a binary that defines what it
means to be "OpenSolaris" from an application compatibility
point of view, we now have the opportunity to do just this.
Let's continue working together as a community to develop a set of
branding guidelines so that other distributions may also use the
OpenSolaris brand, provided certain conditions related to compatibility
and quality are met. The first step to a branding program is to define
the OpenSolaris binary core, and I invite the community to help define
it, using the Indiana bits as a first approximation, with the
understanding that it is OK to make mistakes, leaps of faith and
simplifying assumptions as we figure this all out. This discussion has
already begun and some very productive collaboration is
already occurring--many thanks to John Plocher for getting it started.
Once the core is defined, the second step is to build a branding
program around it that will enable other distributions that use
the core to identify themselves as OpenSolaris derived
distributions. As Sara has already mentioned, we have been socializing
this idea inside Sun for some time, and we now have sufficient
buy in that we are ready to bring the topic up to community discussion.
Again, I have no doubt this will be controversial. However, it is the
right thing to do for the community and, yes, for Sun too. The key
challenge the OpenSolaris community faces in the coming months and years
is to grow and attract more users, and having a simple, tangible thing
called OpenSolaris that bundles together what we're doing as a community
in an easily digestible form is a vital part of being able to do that.
And again, just because there is a need for OpenSolaris to be an
complete operating environment, it does not mean there isn't value in
seeing other operating environments derived from the OpenSolaris code
base (i.e., multiple distributions). Existing distributions can
continue as they have before, and distributions that wish to carry
the OpenSolaris brand will now have a path to doing so as well.
Followups set to trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org .
-ian
--
Ian Murdock
http://ianmurdock.com/
"Don't look back--something might be gaining on you." --Satchel Paige
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Posts:
1,495
From:
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 30, 2007 11:01 PM
in response to: Ian Murdock
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[Followups to trademark-policy-dev, please.
To post you will need to subscribe by first sending an email to
trademark-policy-dev-subscribe at opensolaris dot org
-John ]
Ian Murdock wrote:
> ... The first step to a branding program is to define
> the OpenSolaris binary core, and I invite the community to help define
> it, using the Indiana bits as a first approximation, with the
> understanding that it is OK to make mistakes, leaps of faith and
> simplifying assumptions as we figure this all out.
> Followups set to trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org .
(At 8:04pm this evening, just as Ian was typing up his email,
we experienced a ~5.6 earthquake here in San Jose. The USGS
says it was effectively right under our house (9km down and
4km east, but who's counting? Coincidence? I don't think so!
Thanks, Ian! :-)
Ian makes a compelling point that a distro made up of everything on
opensolaris.org should be called opensolaris.
The question still seems to be if this view can be reconciled with
Joerg's and Brian's (placeholders for many, I'm sure) minimalist
perspective (i.e., OpenSolaris - the operating system - is only the
kernel, libc and a shell).
Maybe we don't have to reconcile them, because they are /different/
things. Which of the following are OpenSolaris? Duh, they all are.
They simply have different audiences:
The OpenSolaris Operating System:
At the minimalist end, we have a "miniroot" consisting
of just the stuff needed to boot and get to a shell prompt
on a specific device. The audience for such a "distro"
seems limited to those developers actually working on
a particular device. Think PowerPC and CellPhones. Think
small number of dozens of people.
The OpenSolaris Operating System:
Moving up in the world, this miniroot gains enough drivers
and userland bits to become the basis for a dedicated appliance.
Since the needed bits differ based entirely on what the
appliance is supposed to do, and there presumably isn't any
need for the user to add new functionality to a given one,
the audience for such a distro is also limited to the small
set of developers actually working on the appliance. Think
routers, web servers, mail servers, model railroad empires;
think small number of hundreds of people.
The OpenSolaris Operating Environment:
At some point we have a miniroot, drivers and enough userland
to produce general purpose computing devices. Although one
size could fit all (XXXL?), it seems reasonable to postulate
laptop, desktop, blade, cluster and enterprise variations.
Each of them will be characterized by their own recipe,
optimized for the task at hand: Laptops care about X and
GNOME, web hosting servers care about Apache, Glassfish
and python. Unlike the device and appliance distros, these
general purpose distros are targeted at the volume market
with the expectation that their users will want to add
3rd party features to their systems. Think volume distros.
Think millions of people.
From a compatibility perspective, it is probably OK to ignore the
embedded device and appliance distros - there really isn't any
expectation that a user could take an arbitrary precompiled binary
package and install it on them.
This leaves the general purpose systems. If you take all their
"recipes" and compare them, you will find a large set of common
features/packages. This is what I an thinking of when I say
"compatibility Core" for the OpenSolaris Operating Environment.
Today we have SX, SXDE, Schillix, Belinix, MartUX and Nexenta
as examples of various targeted distros. If I have a binary
program (say, oracle or my company's accounting package...),
and I want to pick a distro,
Should I /expect/ my application to just work on it?
/Will/ it just work?
Does the distro owner have any expectations in this regard?
and most importantly,
How would I tell?
This implies that the branding needs to communicate something about
compatibility, and it should also be sensitive to the distinction
between Operating System and Operating Environment. I'm going to
sleep on it and see what the morning brings before I go edit the
wiki...
-John
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Posts:
3,783
From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 8:46 AM
in response to: plocher
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John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Maybe we don't have to reconcile them, because they are /different/
> things. Which of the following are OpenSolaris? Duh, they all are.
> They simply have different audiences:
>
> The OpenSolaris Operating System:
> At the minimalist end, we have a "miniroot" consisting
...
> Today we have SX, SXDE, Schillix, Belinix, MartUX and Nexenta
> as examples of various targeted distros. If I have a binary
> program (say, oracle or my company's accounting package...),
> and I want to pick a distro,
> Should I /expect/ my application to just work on it?
> /Will/ it just work?
> Does the distro owner have any expectations in this regard?
> and most importantly,
> How would I tell?
More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
"Sun OpenSolaris ...."
I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 8:49 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
> > Maybe we don't have to reconcile them, because they are /different/
> > things. Which of the following are OpenSolaris? Duh, they all are.
> > They simply have different audiences:
> >
> > The OpenSolaris Operating System:
> > At the minimalist end, we have a "miniroot" consisting
>
> ...
>
> > Today we have SX, SXDE, Schillix, Belinix, MartUX and Nexenta
> > as examples of various targeted distros. If I have a binary
> > program (say, oracle or my company's accounting package...),
> > and I want to pick a distro,
> > Should I /expect/ my application to just work on it?
> > /Will/ it just work?
> > Does the distro owner have any expectations in this regard?
> > and most importantly,
> > How would I tell?
>
> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
>
> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>
> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
*how* other distributions would be harmed.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
3,783
From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:08 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
> > right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
> >
> > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >
> > I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> > harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>
> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
that this is the one and only.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:12 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > > More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
> > > right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
> > >
> > > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> > >
> > > I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> > > harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
> >
> > I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> > *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>
> How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't
have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm
it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked
about.
Not to be offensive, but other than hurt feelings, I don't see the harm in it.
> It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> that this is the one and only.
I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
3,783
From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:57 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > that this is the one and only.
>
> I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
> download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
> places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
> that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
than with different ubuntu variants.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:06 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > > that this is the one and only.
> >
> > I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
> > download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
> > places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
> > that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
>
> With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
> than with different ubuntu variants.
Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point.
Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user
expectations.
If, as you say, we have much more variance right now between
OpenSolaris distributions than usage of the trademark should be
restricted accordingly.
Setting user expectations should be a primary goal for any distribution.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
651
From:
Registered:
5/25/05
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:33 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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Shawn Walker wrote:
<pre wrap="">On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
that this is the one and only.
</pre>
<pre wrap="">I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
</pre>
<pre wrap="">With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
than with different ubuntu variants.
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point.
Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user
expectations.
If, as you say, we have much more variance right now between
OpenSolaris distributions than usage of the trademark should be
restricted accordingly.
Setting user expectations should be a primary goal for any distribution.
</pre>
And differentiating. Why would/should a user chose one distribution
over another? It's not solely based on what it is called, but what it
offers. Like with Ubuntu, which keeps getting brought up, each distro
targets a specific market. Variations are what are all the distros
should be going for, as has always been the case. And with good TM
guidelines in place, we can form a family of compatible distributions
that focus on different areas and carry the OpenSolaris name.
I have yet to find any fault in anything Shawn has said. It's getting a
little creepy.
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Posts:
3,783
From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:55 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> >
> > > > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > > > that this is the one and only.
> > >
> > > I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
> > > download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
> > > places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
> > > that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
> >
> > With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
> > than with different ubuntu variants.
>
> Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point.
>
> Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user
> expectations.
This is simple: just set up a web page that points to all OpenSolaris based
distributions.
You cannot install "OpenSolaris" but an OpenSolaris based distribution.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project
Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:38 PM
in response to: joerg
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On 01/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> > > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > > > > that this is the one and only.
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
> > > > download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
> > > > places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
> > > > that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
> > >
> > > With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
> > > than with different ubuntu variants.
> >
> > Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point.
> >
> > Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user
> > expectations.
>
> This is simple: just set up a web page that points to all OpenSolaris based
> distributions.
>
> You cannot install "OpenSolaris" but an OpenSolaris based distribution.
Who says? Users seem to think they can. Why do people on OSNews and
Slashdot (before Project Indiana existed) expect to download and
install something called OpenSolaris?
This is precisely why the branding and trademark guidelines discussion
was started; to help set user expectations. Obviously, at the moment,
many user expectations are different than some here.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
803
From:
Plano, TX
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:11 AM
in response to: joerg
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On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
>>> It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
>>> that this is the one and only.
>>
>> I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me
>> download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other
>> places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know
>> that other "flavours" of Ubuntu exist.
>
> With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling
> than with different ubuntu variants.
Agreed. That's why its easy to image, down the road, variants of
Indiana such as (for example):
OpenSolaris Indiana
OpenSolaris Indiana TestDrive
OpenSolaris Indiana Desktop
OpenSolaris Indiana Server
OpenSolaris Indiana Workstation
in the same way we see (today):
Ubuntu Desktop Edition
Ubuntu Server Edition
with room to grow in any direction in the (near-term/far-term) future.
Regards,
Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. al@logical-approach.com
Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT
OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/
Graduate from "sugar-coating school"? Sorry - I never attended! :)
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From:
DE
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:28 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
>
> That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't
> have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm
> it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked
> about.
I did give several examples why it would harm other distributions.
Could you please be so kind to explain why you believe that there is no harm?
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Doug Scott
dougs@truemail.co.th
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:39 AM
in response to: joerg
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
>
>>> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
>>> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
>>>
>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>>>
>>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
>>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>>>
>> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
>> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>>
>
> How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
>
> It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> that this is the one and only.
>
Jörg,
So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been
proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor.
All the other distributions are not under the mandate of the
opensolaris.org and their future can not be voted on by the core
contributors of the relevant communities. i.e. There is no other show in
town unless you propose SchilliX as a project and have time to back it up :)
Doug
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DE
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:07 AM
in response to: Doug Scott
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Doug Scott <dougs at truemail dot co dot th> wrote:
> > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > that this is the one and only.
> >
> Jörg,
> So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been
> proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor.
The core factor is that I did _ask_ for cooperation on the OpenSolaris mailing
list. Instead of cooperating, people did start their own projects.
Belenix has no really different goals than SchilliX and it would have been
normal to cooperate.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:52 AM
in response to: Doug Scott
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Doug Scott <dougs at truemail dot co dot th> wrote:
> So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been
> proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor.
> All the other distributions are not under the mandate of the
> opensolaris.org and their future can not be voted on by the core
> contributors of the relevant communities. i.e. There is no other show in
> town unless you propose SchilliX as a project and have time to back it up :)
SchilliX is a project and it still exists and Sun still does not help with SchilliX.....
The main issue is that Sun did miss the time to create a commiunity distribution
as Sun did not help with SchilliX. The time for createing a real single
community distro did pass - it is too late.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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From:
JP
Registered:
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 4, 2007 7:16 AM
in response to: joerg
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
>SchilliX is a project and it still exists and Sun still does not help with SchilliX.....
>
>The main issue is that Sun did miss the time to create a commiunity distribution
>as Sun did not help with SchilliX. The time for createing a real single
>community distro did pass - it is too late.
>
>
>
I remember discussions early on that Sun ought not play favorites among
distros that are initiated outside the company, and I think we've held
to that. Really, the majority of our time the last four years has been
spent on opening the OpenSolaris project itself, not on any one project.
And it's not too late for a new distro, by the way. That's what they
said about OpenSolaris, remember? And they were all wrong. :)
Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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Jon Trulson
jon@radscan.com
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:08 AM
in response to: joerg
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On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
>>> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
>>> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
>>>
>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>>>
>>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
>>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>>
>> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
>> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>
> How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
>
How could that possibly be done?
> It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> that this is the one and only.
>
FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would
welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution.
Without it, we would be forced to choose one or two of the dists
available to try to officially support, much as we have to do now on
Linux.
--
Happy cheese in fear | Jon Trulson
against oppressor, rebel! | mailto:jon at radscan dot com
Brocolli, hostage. -Unknown | #include <std/d
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:37 AM
in response to: Jon Trulson
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On 31/10/2007, Jon Trulson <jon at radscan dot com> wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>
> > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> >
> >>> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
> >>> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
> >>>
> >>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> >>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >>>
> >>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> >>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
> >>
> >> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> >> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
> >
> > How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
> >
>
> How could that possibly be done?
That's not my problem; I have no interest in proving its harm. The
onus of proving a point is upon the person who claimed it.
> > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > that this is the one and only.
> >
>
> FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would
> welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution.
>
> Without it, we would be forced to choose one or two of the dists
> available to try to officially support, much as we have to do now on
> Linux.
Exactly!
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Jon Trulson
jon@radscan.com
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:58 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Shawn Walker wrote:
> On 31/10/2007, Jon Trulson <jon at radscan dot com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>
>>> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
>>>>> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>>>>>
>>>>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
>>>>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>>>>
>>>> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
>>>> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>>>
>>> How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
>>>
>>
>> How could that possibly be done?
>
> That's not my problem; I have no interest in proving its harm. The
> onus of proving a point is upon the person who claimed it.
>
heh, I think that one was for Joerg, not you :)
[...]
--
Happy cheese in fear | Jon Trulson
against oppressor, rebel! | mailto:jon at radscan dot com
Brocolli, hostage. -Unknown | #include <std/d
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Posts:
383
From:
GB
Registered:
10/27/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 1:42 PM
in response to: Jon Trulson
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On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 12:08:12PM -0600, Jon Trulson wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>
> > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> >
> >>> More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
> >>> right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
> >>>
> >>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> >>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >>>
> >>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> >>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
> >>
> >> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> >> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
> >
> > How about trying to prove that there is no such harm?
> >
>
> How could that possibly be done?
>
> > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > that this is the one and only.
> >
>
> FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would
> welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution.
>
> Without it, we would be forced to choose one or two of the dists
> available to try to officially support, much as we have to do now on
> Linux.
There's your example of harm; Jon Trulson would be supporting only
the reference distribution and not the other distros. This can be
expected to hold true for others. [1]
Ceri
[1] This can, of course, be seen to be a good thing for ISVs, but that's
not the question which was one of harm to other distros.
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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DE
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 4:12 AM
in response to: Jon Trulson
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Jon Trulson <jon at radscan dot com> wrote:
> > It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
> > that this is the one and only.
> >
>
> FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would
> welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution.
This would cause problems too.
It is better to define a binary compatibility guideline and to have a test
for compatibility. We, the community of people who create distributions
in addition need to take care that this test is complete enough.
To understand this problem: If I did not push Sun to verify /usr/bin/tar
against _my_ POSIX compliance test, Sun tar would still not create/read
POSIX.1-1988 compliant archives although it did pass the OpenGroup tests.
Note that if a distribution _adds_ this to the compatibility definitions,
this would make this distro unsuitable as a reference. For the same reason,
I need to correct you as I believe that believe that "Sun OpenSolaris" could
be a reference distribution. "Sun OpenSolaris" would most likely include
more software than the reference requires and thus make it unsuitable as a
reference.
A reference distro has no less _and_ no more than the interface definition
and grants users that software compiled on that distro to run on any
other compatible distro.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Jon Trulson
jon@radscan.com
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 5:05 PM
in response to: joerg
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Jon Trulson <jon at radscan dot com> wrote:
>
>>> It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro "OpenSolaris", many people believe
>>> that this is the one and only.
>>>
>>
>> FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would
>> welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution.
>
> This would cause problems too.
>
> It is better to define a binary compatibility guideline and to have a test
> for compatibility. We, the community of people who create distributions
> in addition need to take care that this test is complete enough.
>
> To understand this problem: If I did not push Sun to verify /usr/bin/tar
> against _my_ POSIX compliance test, Sun tar would still not create/read
> POSIX.1-1988 compliant archives although it did pass the OpenGroup tests.
>
>
> Note that if a distribution _adds_ this to the compatibility definitions,
> this would make this distro unsuitable as a reference. For the same reason,
> I need to correct you as I believe that believe that "Sun OpenSolaris" could
> be a reference distribution. "Sun OpenSolaris" would most likely include
> more software than the reference requires and thus make it unsuitable as a
> reference.
>
As Casper replied previously, defining 'compatibility' is
non-trivial. No doubt what I consider 'compatible' might have no
meaning to a company like adobe, who would have other requirements.
What I was trying to get across was that one of Solaris's strengths
is that it is actually designed, implemented, documented, and then
supported for 'a while', something which is generally alien to Linux.
As an example, if an OpenSolaris Reference Implementation (OSRI)
supports package manager 'Coolio', then I would expect other dists
based on OSRI to also support 'Coolio', even if it also contains
some other package manager.
I would like kernel modules and userland binaries compiled on OSRI
to run, unmodified, on any dist that calls itself based on OSRI. I
know this sounds a little silly (and maybe pretty obvious), but for
any of you that have had to develop and support software on Linux,
and in particular, the Linux kernel - you know how important this
stuff is.
> A reference distro has no less _and_ no more than the interface definition
> and grants users that software compiled on that distro to run on any
> other compatible distro.
>
Well, an OSRI has to be actually *usable* as well...
> J�rg
>
>
--
Happy cheese in fear | Jon Trulson
against oppressor, rebel! | mailto:jon at radscan dot com
Brocolli, hostage. -Unknown | #include <std/d
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From:
DE
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 5:00 AM
in response to: Jon Trulson
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Jon Trulson <jon at radscan dot com> wrote:
> As Casper replied previously, defining 'compatibility' is
> non-trivial. No doubt what I consider 'compatible' might have no
> meaning to a company like adobe, who would have other requirements.
I do not seee new ideas in Caspers text.
> What I was trying to get across was that one of Solaris's strengths
> is that it is actually designed, implemented, documented, and then
> supported for 'a while', something which is generally alien to Linux.
>
> As an example, if an OpenSolaris Reference Implementation (OSRI)
> supports package manager 'Coolio', then I would expect other dists
> based on OSRI to also support 'Coolio', even if it also contains
> some other package manager.
>
> I would like kernel modules and userland binaries compiled on OSRI
> to run, unmodified, on any dist that calls itself based on OSRI. I
> know this sounds a little silly (and maybe pretty obvious), but for
> any of you that have had to develop and support software on Linux,
> and in particular, the Linux kernel - you know how important this
> stuff is.
Compatiblitiy is less trivial than you might belive but without conformance
tests, we cannot claim anything about compatibility of siftware or
distributions.
> > A reference distro has no less _and_ no more than the interface definition
> > and grants users that software compiled on that distro to run on any
> > other compatible distro.
> >
>
> Well, an OSRI has to be actually *usable* as well...
I am not sure whether you understand the compatibility problems that arise from
having _additional_ software that does not belong to the interface definitions.
If you like to compile "compatible" software and prove that it is compatible,
you are not allowed to have _additional_ software in the compile machine.
If you did, the software may depend on these bits without your knowledge.
People tend to install additional software on their development machines and
people tend not to have these machines in a clean known state.
A distro alone cannot be a refernce. It must not even be changed for
the compatibility tests.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
566
From:
Registered:
4/19/07
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 5:19 AM
in response to: joerg
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>> I would like kernel modules and userland binaries compiled on OSRI
>> to run, unmodified, on any dist that calls itself based on OSRI. I
>> know this sounds a little silly (and maybe pretty obvious), but for
>> any of you that have had to develop and support software on Linux,
>> and in particular, the Linux kernel - you know how important this
>> stuff is.
>
> Compatiblitiy is less trivial than you might belive but without conformance
> tests, we cannot claim anything about compatibility of siftware or
> distributions.
Obviously, guaranteeing a compatibility baseline for the whole system
isn't practically possible.
What should be made sure is that there's a conformance test where you
can hand out sort of a e-badge, that tells an user that the kernel
hasn't been screwed with custom patches (unlike what every major Linux
distro does). This would be of interest for driver developers.
While I don't expect distro makers doing their own kernel tweaking on
their distros yet, you have to plan ahead so that this conformance thing
is in place for the case OpenSolaris actually takes off like the Sun
management (i.e. JSchwartz, Murdock and cohorts) hopes.
-mg
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From:
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 12:40 PM
in response to: joerg
|
|
[Followups to trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org]
Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Compatiblitiy is less trivial than you might belive but without conformance
> tests, we cannot claim anything about compatibility
> ...
>
> A distro alone cannot be a refernce. It must not even be changed for
> the compatibility tests.
One of my comments on the wiki definition was along the lines of:
We could, as a starting place for defining compatibility,
simply assert that there is a baseline (installer and
a set of versioned packages; a "recipe", if you will)
that must exist in any distro if it wants to claim
compatibility.
Of course, this type of definition is poor, from many perspectives.
It is, however, easy to implement :-)
It presumes significant sameness between distros - not a bad thing
from a compatibility perspective. Same installer, same kernel, same
packaging system, same repositories...
But, it is a starting point that we can use today, rather than
waiting for someone to develop a full blown, ratified test suite...
-John
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Posts:
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From:
DE
Registered:
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 3, 2007 4:09 AM
in response to: plocher
|
|
John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> [Followups to trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org]
>
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > Compatiblitiy is less trivial than you might belive but without conformance
> > tests, we cannot claim anything about compatibility
>
> > ...
>
> >
> > A distro alone cannot be a refernce. It must not even be changed for
> > the compatibility tests.
>
> One of my comments on the wiki definition was along the lines of:
>
> We could, as a starting place for defining compatibility,
> simply assert that there is a baseline (installer and
> a set of versioned packages; a "recipe", if you will)
> that must exist in any distro if it wants to claim
> compatibility.
If there are several levels, e.g.:
- Plain ON
- ON + X
- ON + GNUME
it would allow to create application classes and to predict whether an
application should run.
If somebody e.g. includes add-ons in his libc, this does not help.
This explains how hard it is to create a compliance test. Unless you know
what odd interface you need to look for, you may only realize that a program
compiled on 'A OpenSolaris' will not run on 'B OpenSolaris'.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 3, 2007 5:36 AM
in response to: plocher
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On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 12:40 -0700, John Plocher wrote:
> One of my comments on the wiki definition was along the lines of:
>
> We could, as a starting place for defining compatibility,
> simply assert that there is a baseline (installer and
> a set of versioned packages; a "recipe", if you will)
> that must exist in any distro if it wants to claim
> compatibility.
>
> Of course, this type of definition is poor, from many perspectives.
> It is, however, easy to implement :-)
This may in fact be close to the right starting place.
At the higher levels I'd want to see a goal of:
"every piece of your distribution built from opensolaris sources should
be independently reproduceable from source, and changes between the base
opensolaris sources and the sources used in the build must be clearly
identified".
If the source changes can be identified, then an expert user can make an
independant judgement about whether the changes are sufficiently
compatible for their purposes.
we need a tight definition of "reproduceable" that excludes things that
are expected to change from build to build (such as elf timestamps and
elfsign signatures).
At the lower levels ("built with OpenSolaris") it should suffice to
identify the specific versions of opensolaris sources which were used to
build the product.
> It presumes significant sameness between distros - not a bad thing
> from a compatibility perspective. Same installer, same kernel, same
> packaging system, same repositories...
Given the current state of pkg, I think it's premature to require
everyone use the same packaging system. What really matters for binary
compatibility is what the packaging system delivers onto the running
system.
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:12 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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Hello,
I think the question of "getting access to" OpenSolaris could be
addressed by allowing (anyone interested in doing so) to
make that decision by looking at a matrix with requirements
(horizontally), and how various distro's satisfy those requirements
(vertically).
Assuming each of the distros were using Nevada as the kernel (which is
available through the OpenSolaris project, and which they do), then all
distro's deserve to be referenced as OpenSolaris-based, even if such
distro's come from Sun. Similar, in some ways, to the "Intel-inside"
marketing
of the mid-90's. Its based on OpenSolaris (as an adjective), but it
could only be THE (noun) OpenSolaris distribution if it would clearly
define the delta's/features that it has compared with: 1) other
distro's and 2) how it fits into and benefits the overall OpenSolaris
(adjective) project.
Perhaps overly simplified, but I often feel we need to keep things
simple.
My $0.02.
Regards,
Isaac
Shawn Walker wrote:
<pre wrap="">On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Maybe we don't have to reconcile them, because they are /different/
things. Which of the following are OpenSolaris? Duh, they all are.
They simply have different audiences:
The OpenSolaris Operating System:
At the minimalist end, we have a "miniroot" consisting
</pre>
<pre wrap="">...
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Today we have SX, SXDE, Schillix, Belinix, MartUX and Nexenta
as examples of various targeted distros. If I have a binary
program (say, oracle or my company's accounting package...),
and I want to pick a distro,
Should I /expect/ my application to just work on it?
/Will/ it just work?
Does the distro owner have any expectations in this regard?
and most importantly,
How would I tell?
</pre>
<pre wrap="">More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the
right to call a distro "OpenSolaris" and that Sun shoul/would not do this.
I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
"Sun OpenSolaris ...."
I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
*how* other distributions would be harmed.
</pre>
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Posts:
1,495
From:
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana
and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:42 AM
in response to: Isaac R.
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Isaac R. wrote:
> I think the question of "getting access to" OpenSolaris could be
> addressed by allowing (anyone interested in doing so) to
> make that decision by looking at a matrix with requirements
> (horizontally), and how various distro's satisfy those requirements
> (vertically).
I tend to agree, but the devil is in the details...
Could you take a stab at producing this matrix - or at least
the column labels for the features/requirements that you might
expect to see?
A concrete example would be extremely useful about now :-)
> Assuming each of the distros were using Nevada as the kernel (which is
> available through the OpenSolaris project, and which they do), then all
> distro's deserve to be referenced as OpenSolaris-based, even if such
Sounds like your definition of "compatibility" is closely related to
"has the same kernel"...
I'm looking forward to seeing what your important requirements might be.
-John
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From:
DE
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:56 AM
in response to: Isaac R.
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"Isaac R." <isaac at sun dot com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I think the question of "getting access to" OpenSolaris could be
> addressed by allowing (anyone interested in doing so) to
> make that decision by looking at a matrix with requirements
> (horizontally), and how various distro's satisfy those requirements
> (vertically).
>
> Assuming each of the distros were using Nevada as the kernel (which is
> available through the OpenSolaris project, and which they do), then all
> distro's deserve to be referenced as OpenSolaris-based, even if such
> distro's come from Sun. Similar, in some ways, to the "Intel-inside"
> marketing
OpenSolaris Inside would be a nice idea.
Together with a compatibility test, there could be tags like
ACME RabbitOS - OpenSolaris Inside - OpenSolaris Binary compatibility type C.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:35 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
> Shawn Walker wrote:
> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct
sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where
is there room for other distros to compete?
The answer, of course, isn't simple. The status quo changes, and we all
have to change or be left behind. As an awesome first non-Sun distro,
Schillix broke ground that made it possible for there to /be/ non-Sun
distros. But, that was 2 years ago, and finally the community is getting
itself up to speed. Rather than being a private effort run outside of
the OpenSolaris Community, Indiana is producing a distro within the
community itself. (It is interesting to note that of these 6 initial
distros, only the SX and Belinix teams seem to have put in the effort
to transform their outsider distros into something done within the
community)
In the end, though, this is a loosely structured community, driven
by those who "do" rather than those who "talk". See a need, fill a
need. Sometimes there are competing efforts and one succeeds while the
other doesn't. Othertimes, both succeed wildly. It is all about
choices.
If Joerg or any of the other initial-distro leads had so desired, they
*could have* created an OpenSolaris Community/Project to host and
develop their distros; chances are that if they had, their efforts
would now be the ones we would want to call OpenSolaris. Ironic, no?
-John
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From:
DE
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:02 AM
in response to: plocher
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John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> If Joerg or any of the other initial-distro leads had so desired, they
> *could have* created an OpenSolaris Community/Project to host and
> develop their distros; chances are that if they had, their efforts
> would now be the ones we would want to call OpenSolaris. Ironic, no?
Some of your (removed) statements are correct, but this is misunderstanding
the problem.
There was a community for SchilliX, but some core people did disappear.
SchilliX is not dead but from my experiences with trying to get new people
that help, just creating an OpenSolaris Community/Project would not help.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:39 AM
in response to: plocher
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John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> >> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
> >> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>
> > Shawn Walker wrote:
> > I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
> > *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>
>
> I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct
> sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where
> is there room for other distros to compete?
You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated
distro but a _Sun_ initiated one.
SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun
did not like to help with this distro.
It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution
of the community as it was not "the community" that did decide to start the
project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with
SchilliX, but I did get the answer: "no, we definitely won't do that" from many
sites insite Sun.
There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could
not roll back the years.... The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as
a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not
ready for this at the time when it had been possible.
Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear
commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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From:
Винницкая область — область на западе Украины. (Vinnitsya, Ukraine)
Registered:
6/14/05
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 4:06 AM
in response to: joerg
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
>
>> >> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>
>>>> I have problems if this was not labelled with "Sun" as this would cause
>>>> harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions.
>>>>
>>> Shawn Walker wrote:
>>> I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly
>>> *how* other distributions would be harmed.
>>>
>> I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct
>> sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where
>> is there room for other distros to compete?
>>
>
> You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated
> distro but a _Sun_ initiated one.
>
> SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun
> did not like to help with this distro.
>
> It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution
> of the community as it was not "the community" that did decide to start the
> project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with
> SchilliX, but I did get the answer: "no, we definitely won't do that" from many
> sites insite Sun.
>
> There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could
> not roll back the years.... The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as
> a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not
> ready for this at the time when it had been possible.
>
> Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear
> commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX.
>
> Jörg
>
>
Nobody wants to hear this.
Write a nice mail stating "let's stop discussing about the name, let's
just bring it out ... and then let's see" and even one of the highest
bosses will respond.
(seen today)
And in terms of Blastwave: I cannot make any statement (as I don't know
the details) to which extend it has been Blastwave's own decision to
mostly stay out of opensolaris.org. The good climate between the
Director of Blastwave and a top OGB member makes me wonder. But if no
person ever responds to my Blastwave related questions, I hardly have
any other choice, than to guess.
It is not my business? Well, if this is a community driven framework
here, then .....
%martin
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 8:20 AM
in response to: joerg
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated
> distro but a _Sun_ initiated one.
You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working
for Sun has no validity.
Bullshit.
If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees,
then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't
community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also!
> SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun
> did not like to help with this distro.
I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole
opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections
to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to
make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging
"Sun did not like to help" is a bit much.
-John
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From:
DE
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 9:25 AM
in response to: plocher
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John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated
> > distro but a _Sun_ initiated one.
>
> You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working
> for Sun has no validity.
>
> Bullshit.
Would you please use a less unfriendly wording?
> If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees,
> then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't
> community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also!
>
> > SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun
> > did not like to help with this distro.
>
> I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole
> opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections
> to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to
> make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging
> "Sun did not like to help" is a bit much.
People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this
reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 1:28 PM
in response to: joerg
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On 01/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated
> > > distro but a _Sun_ initiated one.
> >
> > You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working
> > for Sun has no validity.
> >
> > Bullshit.
>
> Would you please use a less unfriendly wording?
>
>
> > If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees,
> > then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't
> > community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also!
> >
> > > SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun
> > > did not like to help with this distro.
> >
> > I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole
> > opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections
> > to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to
> > make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging
> > "Sun did not like to help" is a bit much.
>
> People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this
> reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community.
Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed
something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything
happen?
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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DE
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 4:34 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this
> > reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community.
>
> Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed
> something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything
> happen?
I did try to get help from the community and I did have many discussions
with Sun to no avail. What is your concern?
The problem is that Sun takes working project ideas from the community outside
Sun and creates internal projects with nearly identical goals. This is something
that causes the main problems in the opensolaris related mailing lists.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 6:53 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > > People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this
> > > reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community.
> >
> > Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed
> > something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything
> > happen?
>
> I did try to get help from the community and I did have many discussions
> with Sun to no avail. What is your concern?
So people weren't interested. That happens sometimes. But you can't
blame others for this failure.
> The problem is that Sun takes working project ideas from the community outside
> Sun and creates internal projects with nearly identical goals. This is something
> that causes the main problems in the opensolaris related mailing lists.
I'm not sure I agree, but I've only been working with Solaris since
2005; obviously you have twenty more years on me.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:43 PM
in response to: joerg
|
|
On 01/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> > I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole
> > opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections
> > to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to
> > make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging
> > "Sun did not like to help" is a bit much.
>
> People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this
> reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community.
Why should Sun need to be interested? In the last two years you could
have proposed the creation of a distribution community on
opensolaris.org and worked with SchilliX from that as a base.
Joerg, the only reason SchilliX hasn't gone anywhere is because you
and others haven't taken the steps necessary to make that happen.
Please don't take offense at this, I downloaded SchilliX when it first
came out, and even sent you a few bug reports about the readme or some
such thing.
I'm just pointing out that you chose to work outside of the "community
website" and thus were inevitably invisible to anyone that wasn't
already aware of SchilliX through other channels.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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From:
DE
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 4:45 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> Joerg, the only reason SchilliX hasn't gone anywhere is because you
> and others haven't taken the steps necessary to make that happen.
This is definitely not true.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 6:52 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > Joerg, the only reason SchilliX hasn't gone anywhere is because you
> > and others haven't taken the steps necessary to make that happen.
>
> This is definitely not true.
Yes it is. It is the same reason that star isn't integrated yet. No
one has done the work necessary to make that happen; or at the least
finish it. You can't just say "star is great tool, now please
integrate it for me." It doesn't work that way. Roland showed us all
exactly how and what needs to be done to get something integrated.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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DE
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 8:01 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> >
> > > Joerg, the only reason SchilliX hasn't gone anywhere is because you
> > > and others haven't taken the steps necessary to make that happen.
> >
> > This is definitely not true.
>
> Yes it is. It is the same reason that star isn't integrated yet. No
> one has done the work necessary to make that happen; or at the least
> finish it. You can't just say "star is great tool, now please
You constantly jump between different acusations. Please stop this.
Please do not blame me that (except Mike Kupfer and Jim Walker) nobody
from Sun did contribute. If nobody from likes to help here, then Sun is not
yet ready for OpenSolaris.
I am open to people who like to help, but please do not constantly try to blame
me that you and other do nothing.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 8:40 AM
in response to: joerg
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>Please do not blame me that (except Mike Kupfer and Jim Walker) nobody
>from Sun did contribute. If nobody from likes to help here, then Sun is not
>yet ready for OpenSolaris.
I'm sorry? Are we *obliged* in some way to help people with projects?
The only help people are somewhat entitled to, IMHO, is help after
filing a request-sponsor request.
Don't forget that Sun is not paying people to work on projects other
than Sun's own project; and any help given by sun folks to bits outside
their job description is voluntary and NOT from Sun but from the
individual employee.
So it is IMPOSSIBLE to blame anyone for not helping. Not Sun, not
individual employees. Projects get traction because people find
them sexy and they offer to the best of their abilities; in some
cases, such as a whole distro, any task may seem to daunting.
And the laptop community primarily attracts folks who want wireless
drivers; but for them it is far too difficult to write them.
Casper
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Shawn Walker
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 8:56 AM
in response to: joerg
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On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> > > "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joerg, the only reason SchilliX hasn't gone anywhere is because you
> > > > and others haven't taken the steps necessary to make that happen.
> > >
> > > This is definitely not true.
> >
> > Yes it is. It is the same reason that star isn't integrated yet. No
> > one has done the work necessary to make that happen; or at the least
> > finish it. You can't just say "star is great tool, now please
>
> You constantly jump between different acusations. Please stop this.
It isn't an accusation. ksh93 got integrated; start hasn't. Therefore
I can only conclude one of two things:
1) that the necessary work to integrate start has not yet been done or finished
2) that a vast conspiracy exists at Sun to prevent start from being integrated
Since #2 isn't within the realm of reality; I'm going to go with option #1.
> Please do not blame me that (except Mike Kupfer and Jim Walker) nobody
> from Sun did contribute. If nobody from likes to help here, then Sun is not
> yet ready for OpenSolaris.
Jorg, blaming individuals for the lack of integration of star isn't
going to help anyone. Roland got ksh93 integrated so I have complete
faith you can get start integrated if you are willing to do the work
and *compromise* (e.g. deal with the whole compatibility with SUN tar
despite its problems).
> I am open to people who like to help, but please do not constantly try to blame
> me that you and other do nothing.
Actually, I'd be more than willing to help you get star integrated; I
like it that much. However, I have not yet volunteered for that as I
don't have the time at the moment. I have my own RTIs I'm trying to
get done. However, once I have the time, I would be more than happy to
help you get through arc and do the necessary work required to get
star integrated.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 9:07 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> Jorg, blaming individuals for the lack of integration of star isn't
> going to help anyone. Roland got ksh93 integrated so I have complete
> faith you can get start integrated if you are willing to do the work
> and *compromise* (e.g. deal with the whole compatibility with SUN tar
> despite its problems).
You forget that _you_ are blaming me and this is absolutely not helpful as
I am not responsible for the lack of interest to get a better tar in Solaris.
It would help a lot oif you did stop repeating these unhelful claims.
> Actually, I'd be more than willing to help you get star integrated; I
> like it that much. However, I have not yet volunteered for that as I
I did not see you in any code related discussion here..... please explain.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
45
From:
Colorado
Registered:
10/19/07
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 1:26 PM
in response to: joerg
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Can someone please fix the discussion list mail server or am I the only
one getting a second helping of the same messages? It's tough enough to
go through them all (including the cross-postings) the first time, but
having to do it again is killer.
Thanks,
Marty
On 11/2/2007 10:07 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
>
>>Jorg, blaming individuals for the lack of integration of star isn't
>>going to help anyone. Roland got ksh93 integrated so I have complete
>>faith you can get start integrated if you are willing to do the work
>>and *compromise* (e.g. deal with the whole compatibility with SUN tar
>>despite its problems).
>
>
> You forget that _you_ are blaming me and this is absolutely not helpful as
> I am not responsible for the lack of interest to get a better tar in Solaris.
>
> It would help a lot oif you did stop repeating these unhelful claims.
>
>
>
>>Actually, I'd be more than willing to help you get star integrated; I
>>like it that much. However, I have not yet volunteered for that as I
>
>
>
> I did not see you in any code related discussion here..... please explain.
>
> Jörg
>
--
_/_/_/ Marty Duey
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Partner Development Manager
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ Partner Marketing
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ Email: marty dot duey at sun dot com
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ Direct: 303.223.6141
Internal: x69342
M I C R O S Y S T E M S
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JP
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:03 AM
in response to: joerg
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
of the brand?
Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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From:
US
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:51 AM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio writes:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>
> > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>
> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> of the brand?
I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
"install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
You can only install a distribution of it, of which there are many.
People do talk about running "RedHat Linux" or getting "Ubuntu Linux."
The "Linux" part is the generic term, and the distribution name makes
it specific.
"Sun OpenSolaris" and "Nexenta OpenSolaris" do make sense to me, at
least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for "Sun's Solaris
distribution based on OpenSolaris" and "the Nexenta distribution based
on OpenSolaris."
I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_
vision, and not the or even "a" community vision. In that light, it
becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming
is such an important thing.
Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do
think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing
views if we're going to make any progress.
--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking <james dot d dot carlson at sun dot com>
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:15 AM
in response to: carlsonj
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On 31/10/2007, James Carlson <james dot d dot carlson at sun dot com> wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio writes:
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >
> > > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >
> > Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> > been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> > confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> > of the brand?
>
> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
> You can only install a distribution of it, of which there are many.
>
> People do talk about running "RedHat Linux" or getting "Ubuntu Linux."
> The "Linux" part is the generic term, and the distribution name makes
> it specific.
>
> "Sun OpenSolaris" and "Nexenta OpenSolaris" do make sense to me, at
> least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for "Sun's Solaris
> distribution based on OpenSolaris" and "the Nexenta distribution based
> on OpenSolaris."
Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the
work of OpenSolaris.org right now.
The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution;
which is not true.
Project Indiana is a distribution birthed by members of the
OpenSolaris community, discussed and developed here within reason, and
a product of the efforts of the members of this community as a project
(*in the strict sense*) officially recognized by this community.
Therefore it would not be proper to call the OpenSolaris Developer
Preview "Sun's OpenSolaris Developer Preview" because the distribution
is the result of OpenSolaris.org and not Sun.
> I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_
> vision, and not the or even "a" community vision. In that light, it
> becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming
> is such an important thing.
The converse is true; some community members here see it as a
OpenSolaris.org project; not a Sun one.
I don't think Sun has any interest in commercially marketing a product
under anything but the name "Solaris." So let's leave the subjective
views aside and focus on what best represents our community.
> Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do
> think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing
> views if we're going to make any progress.
Indeed. Let's stir the pot some more...
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
844
From:
INDIA
Registered:
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:19 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the
> work of OpenSolaris.org right now.
>
> The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution;
> which is not true.
>
Input to the contrary couldn't have been more specific and to the
point: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000145.html
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000158.html
While this need not preclude the naming privilege to Indiana as
discussed in that thread, Ignoring these inputs and re-iterating the
stance doesn't make the argument credible.
-Shiv
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Shawn Walker
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:35 AM
in response to: gns
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On 31/10/2007, S h i v <shivakumar dot gn at gmail dot com> wrote:
> On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> >
> > Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the
> > work of OpenSolaris.org right now.
> >
> > The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution;
> > which is not true.
> >
>
> Input to the contrary couldn't have been more specific and to the
> point: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000145.html
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000158.html
That input is not a fact; it is a personal evaluation. I happen to
disagree with that evaluation.
You may see this as Sun's project alone; I do not.
I see it as a project representative of the OpenSolaris.org community's work.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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DE
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:57 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> > "Sun OpenSolaris" and "Nexenta OpenSolaris" do make sense to me, at
> > least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for "Sun's Solaris
> > distribution based on OpenSolaris" and "the Nexenta distribution based
> > on OpenSolaris."
>
> Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the
> work of OpenSolaris.org right now.
Do you like to tell us that other distributiuons are not based on OpenSolaris?
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 11:16 AM
in response to: carlsonj
|
|
James Carlson wrote:
> I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_
> vision, and not the or even "a" community vision. In that light, it
> becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming
> is such an important thing.
>
> Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do
> think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing
> views if we're going to make any progress.
There should have been a vote. That is why we have people with voting
rights - so we have a formal mechanism for gauging the views of the
community on important changes which affect the entire community. This
is clearly such an issue.
--
Alan Burlison
--
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Ian Murdock
Ian.Murdock@Sun.COM
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 6:54 PM
in response to: carlsonj
|
|
James Carlson wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio writes:
>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>
>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
>> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
>> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
>> of the brand?
>
> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
-ian
--
Ian Murdock
http://ianmurdock.com/
"Don't look back--something might be gaining on you." --Satchel Paige
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Posts:
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From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 7:01 PM
in response to: Ian Murdock
|
|
> James Carlson wrote:
>> Jim Grisanzio writes:
>>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>>> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
>>> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
>>> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
>>> of the brand?
>>
>> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
>> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
>
> You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
> for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system.
Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm).
If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or
Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the
community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to
Solaris.
Its confusing to everyone .. sales people, engineers, people on the street
and people I talk to on the phone and even me.
So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris and then
we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight than word
games.
Dennis Clarke
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Posts:
803
From:
Plano, TX
Registered:
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 7:29 PM
in response to: dclarke
|
|
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Dennis Clarke wrote:
>
>> James Carlson wrote:
>>> Jim Grisanzio writes:
>>>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
>>>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>>>> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
>>>> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
>>>> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
>>>> of the brand?
>>>
>>> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
>>> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
>>
>> You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
>> for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
>
> Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system.
>
> Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm).
>
> If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or
> Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the
> community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to
> Solaris.
>
> Its confusing to everyone .. sales people, engineers, people on the street
> and people I talk to on the phone and even me.
>
> So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris and then
> we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight than word
> games.
But the problem with a one-word name like "OpenSolaris" is that it's
not future proof. What happens when you decide, a year from now, that
you want a different "flavor" of OpenSolaris targeted at a different
end-user community or targeted at a different problem space?
There is no such thing as a universal OS that is the solution to every
problem space or the distribution of choice for every end-user
community.
In the real world, we know, intuitively, that there is no such thing
as a universal screw-driver. We know that every toolbox contains many
screwdrivers and we give them different broad-based names to corral
them into general categories... like "philips screwdriver",
"flat-blade screwdriver".. blah, blah.
And we can see other existing OS naming conventions that work in the
real world (like I wrote earlier):
Ubuntu Desktop Edition
Ubuntu Server Edition
So I would like to propose a naming convention that is future-proof,
that shares a "family" of well known operational characteristics and
that the first member of that family be known as:
OpenSolaris Indiana
I'll try to hash out a more complete proposal tomorrow and post it on
tm-policy-dev....
Regards,
Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. al@logical-approach.com
Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT
OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/
Graduate from "sugar-coating school"? Sorry - I never attended! :)
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Posts:
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From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 7:41 PM
in response to: alhopper
|
|
>>>> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
>>>> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
>>>
>>> You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
>>> for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
>>
>> Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system.
>>
>> Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm).
>>
>> If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or
>> Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the
>> community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to
>> Solaris.
>>
>> Its confusing to everyone .. sales people, engineers, people on the street
>> and people I talk to on the phone and even me.
>>
>> So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris and
>> then
>> we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight than
>> word
>> games.
>
> But the problem with a one-word name like "OpenSolaris" is that it's
> not future proof.
Solaris made open source. Works just fine.
> What happens when you decide, a year from now, that
> you want a different "flavor" of OpenSolaris targeted at a different
> end-user community or targeted at a different problem space?
>
> There is no such thing as a universal OS that is the solution to every
> problem space or the distribution of choice for every end-user
> community.
>
> In the real world, we know, intuitively, that there is no such thing
> as a universal screw-driver. We know that every toolbox contains many
> screwdrivers and we give them different broad-based names to corral
> them into general categories... like "philips screwdriver",
> "flat-blade screwdriver".. blah, blah.
>
> And we can see other existing OS naming conventions that work in the
> real world (like I wrote earlier):
>
> Ubuntu Desktop Edition
> Ubuntu Server Edition
OpenSolaris Desktop Edition
OpenSolaris Server Edition
OpenSolaris Core Edition
Works for me. I added the last one because of my interest in small appliance
devices.
> So I would like to propose a naming convention that is future-proof,
> that shares a "family" of well known operational characteristics and
> that the first member of that family be known as:
>
> OpenSolaris Indiana
Pretty arbitrary. Indiana is a State. Are there 51 others ? Is there a
license consideration per State? Ask the questions that a complete
outsider would ask. I was on the phone today with a man that administers
( and has buying power ) for 150 public libraries up here. I logged into
his V880 and it was running Solaris 9. I proposed an upgrade to Solaris 10
and after some discussion about stability etc etc he agreed. During the
discussion I pointed him to the OpenSolaris site. He asked rela questions
that real people ask who are not developers and not programmers.
If you want to grow the userbase then make it digestable to the user.
> I'll try to hash out a more complete proposal tomorrow and post it on
> tm-policy-dev....
Al, I look forward to it.
Dennis
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Posts:
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From:
DE
Registered:
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 5:36 AM
in response to: alhopper
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Al Hopper <al@logical-approach.com> wrote:
> In the real world, we know, intuitively, that there is no such thing
> as a universal screw-driver. We know that every toolbox contains many
> screwdrivers and we give them different broad-based names to corral
> them into general categories... like "philips screwdriver",
> "flat-blade screwdriver".. blah, blah.
Even a Phlips screwdriver is unable to corrrectly deal with any cross recess
screw as Philips is just one of at least three _incompatible_ "cross recess"
screw systems.
This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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screwdrivers - Re: [advocacy-discuss]
[trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 11:15 AM
in response to: joerg
|
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
If it is a bug (as I believe), how do we fix it?
If you don't think it is a bug, then we will have to agree to disagree.
I don't believe this disagreement is necessarily fatal to our ability to
work together.
-John
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Posts:
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From:
DE
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Re: screwdrivers - Re: [advocacy-discuss]
[trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 11:39 AM
in response to: plocher
|
|
John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> > of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
>
> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
have something similar in the "download" section.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Derek Cicero
derek.cicero@sun.com
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 12:41 PM
in response to: joerg
|
|
Joerg Schilling wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>> This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
>>> of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
>> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
>> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
>
> The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
> that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
>
> There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
> a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
> have something similar in the "download" section.
Each distro has their own site (many courtesy of Genunix) where they can
explain the specifics of what they offer in detail. Our downloads page
has pointers to each of those sites.
I don't think we need to add every distro to the os.org home page
anymore then we'd put every distro on the Nexenta home page.
Derek
>
> Jörg
>
--
Derek Cicero
Program Manager
Solaris Kernel Group, Software Division
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Brandorr
brandorr@opensolaris...
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 1:22 PM
in response to: Derek Cicero
|
|
On 11/1/07, Derek Cicero <derek dot cicero at sun dot com> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> >
> >> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >>> This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> >>> of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
> >> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
> >> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
> >
> > The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
> > that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
> >
> > There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
> > a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
> > have something similar in the "download" section.
>
> Each distro has their own site (many courtesy of Genunix) where they can
> explain the specifics of what they offer in detail. Our downloads page
> has pointers to each of those sites.
>
> I don't think we need to add every distro to the os.org home page
> anymore then we'd put every distro on the Nexenta home page.
Why not? Is there something special about Sun's distro, that gives it
the right to sit on the homepage? Is it more functional than the other
distros? More complete? More stable? Or is it that it's just because
it is a "Sun distro" that Sun is implicitly buying advertising space
on the homepage? (And usurping the community's name for it's distro in
the process).
>
> Derek
> >
> > Jörg
> >
>
>
> --
> Derek Cicero
> Program Manager
> Solaris Kernel Group, Software Division
> _______________________________________________
> advocacy-discuss mailing list
> advocacy-discuss at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss
>
--
- Brian Gupta
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/
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Derek Cicero
derek.cicero@sun.com
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers -
Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 1:42 PM
in response to: Brandorr
|
|
Brandorr wrote:
> On 11/1/07, Derek Cicero <derek dot cicero at sun dot com> wrote:
>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>>>> This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
>>>>> of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
>>>> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
>>>> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
>>> The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
>>> that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
>>>
>>> There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
>>> a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
>>> have something similar in the "download" section.
>> Each distro has their own site (many courtesy of Genunix) where they can
>> explain the specifics of what they offer in detail. Our downloads page
>> has pointers to each of those sites.
>>
>> I don't think we need to add every distro to the os.org home page
>> anymore then we'd put every distro on the Nexenta home page.
>
> Why not? Is there something special about Sun's distro, that gives it
> the right to sit on the homepage? Is it more functional than the other
> distros? More complete? More stable? Or is it that it's just because
> it is a "Sun distro" that Sun is implicitly buying advertising space
> on the homepage? (And usurping the community's name for it's distro in
> the process).
The point is that each distro has the right and ability to create and
control their own site. We never said os.org would be the distrowatch
for all OpenSolaris-related releases. As it stands we've placed all the
distros on the Downloads page together.
As I mentioned at the summit and on the website-discuss list, once this
project gets out of the 'preview' phase we'll probably move the
OpenSolaris distro to a separate mini-site on os.org and revert the old
/os/ home page back.
Derek
>
>> Derek
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Derek Cicero
>> Program Manager
>> Solaris Kernel Group, Software Division
>> _______________________________________________
>> advocacy-discuss mailing list
>> advocacy-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss
>>
>
>
--
Derek Cicero
Program Manager
Solaris Kernel Group, Software Division
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Posts:
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From:
JP
Registered:
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [advocacy-discuss]
screwdrivers - Re: [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 4, 2007 6:56 AM
in response to: Derek Cicero
|
|
Derek Cicero wrote:
>As I mentioned at the summit and on the website-discuss list, once this
>project gets out of the 'preview' phase we'll probably move the
>OpenSolaris distro to a separate mini-site on os.org and revert the old
>/os/ home page back.
>
>
>
I like this idea.
Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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Brandorr
brandorr@opensolaris...
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss]
[advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers - Re: Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 4, 2007 7:55 AM
in response to: jimgris
|
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Derek
Possibly I am misunderstanding. I thought the minisite, was not a
"distro minisite", but was rather a cleaner and simpler homepage to
capture the growing number of non-developers that are being attracted
to the community.
IE: a simpler OpenSolaris homepage. Not a new distro homepage.
At least this is what I had in mind when I initially proposed a new
"user facing" website as a summit topic.
-Brian
On 11/4/07, Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at sun dot com> wrote:
> Derek Cicero wrote:
>
> >As I mentioned at the summit and on the website-discuss list, once this
> >project gets out of the 'preview' phase we'll probably move the
> >OpenSolaris distro to a separate mini-site on os.org and revert the old
> >/os/ home page back.
> >
> >
> >
> I like this idea.
>
> Jim
> --
> http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
> _______________________________________________
> trademark-policy-dev mailing list
> trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/trademark-policy-dev
>
--
- Brian Gupta
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/
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Derek Cicero
derek.cicero@sun.com
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers - Re: Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris
name
Posted:
Nov 6, 2007 4:53 PM
in response to: Brandorr
|
|
Brandorr wrote:
> Derek
>
> Possibly I am misunderstanding. I thought the minisite, was not a
> "distro minisite", but was rather a cleaner and simpler homepage to
> capture the growing number of non-developers that are being attracted
> to the community.
>
> IE: a simpler OpenSolaris homepage. Not a new distro homepage.
Yes and no. The idea was to make the home page reflect what the majority
of users want do, which is download the OS and perhaps some 'getting
started' type documentation. The page would have links to the the
developer site, blogs and other places of interest but it would be very
streamlined and focused on downloading, similar to Firefox or Fedora.
Derek
>
> At least this is what I had in mind when I initially proposed a new
> "user facing" website as a summit topic.
>
> -Brian
>
> On 11/4/07, Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at sun dot com> wrote:
>> Derek Cicero wrote:
>>
>>> As I mentioned at the summit and on the website-discuss list, once this
>>> project gets out of the 'preview' phase we'll probably move the
>>> OpenSolaris distro to a separate mini-site on os.org and revert the old
>>> /os/ home page back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I like this idea.
>>
>> Jim
>> --
>> http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
>> _______________________________________________
>> trademark-policy-dev mailing list
>> trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/trademark-policy-dev
>>
>
>
--
Derek Cicero
Program Manager
Solaris Kernel Group, Software Division
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Posts:
689
From:
GB
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 2:02 PM
in response to: Brandorr
|
|
On Nov 1, 2007, at 20:22, Brandorr wrote:
> Sun's distro,
I realise that phrase reflects your viewpoint clearly, but may I
suggest that using it the way you are to describe the work of the
Indiana Project continues division rather than healing it?
S.
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
|
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [advocacy-discuss]
screwdrivers - Re: [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 4:06 PM
in response to: Brandorr
|
|
On 01/11/2007, Brandorr <brandorr at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> On 11/1/07, Derek Cicero <derek dot cicero at sun dot com> wrote:
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > >>> This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> > >>> of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
> > >> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
> > >> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
> > >
> > > The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
> > > that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
> > >
> > > There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
> > > a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
> > > have something similar in the "download" section.
> >
> > Each distro has their own site (many courtesy of Genunix) where they can
> > explain the specifics of what they offer in detail. Our downloads page
> > has pointers to each of those sites.
> >
> > I don't think we need to add every distro to the os.org home page
> > anymore then we'd put every distro on the Nexenta home page.
>
> Why not? Is there something special about Sun's distro, that gives it
> the right to sit on the homepage? Is it more functional than the other
> distros? More complete? More stable? Or is it that it's just because
> it is a "Sun distro" that Sun is implicitly buying advertising space
> on the homepage? (And usurping the community's name for it's distro in
> the process).
Ignoring the troll about "Sun's distro"...assuming for a moment that a
voted upon and duly approved community distribution exists, I would
think featuring it prominently (the way Ubuntu does) with links to
"other distributions" somewhere else is most appropriate.
As someone focused on users, I think you of all people would
appreciate users being able to hit "Download" and not have to read
"umpteen" confusing paragraphs before deciding what to download.
Things should be short and to the point; anything less is focusing on
egos and not on users.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [indiana-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 4:03 PM
in response to: joerg
|
|
On 01/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> John Plocher <John dot Plocher at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> > > of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
> >
> > The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
> > bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
>
> The OpenSolaris community is not in a fight, so I would like to see
> that there is a help on www.opensolaris.org on this topic.
>
> There is more than one distro, so I would like to see something like
> a "get Opensolaris" page that explains the background. We already
> have something similar in the "download" section.
Sorry Jorg, but users don't want to drown in choices. They shouldn't
need to read six paragraphs explaining what they should download and
why.
We should have an official community distribution that is prominent
and the other ones can be easily gotten to as well.
If people have to read six paragraphs of text before they can do
anything useful; they'll likely just say "this sucks! I'll stick with
Linux!" and go somewhere else.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Posts:
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From:
DE
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Re: [indiana-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 4:51 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
|
|
"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> We should have an official community distribution that is prominent
> and the other ones can be easily gotten to as well.
>
> If people have to read six paragraphs of text before they can do
> anything useful; they'll likely just say "this sucks! I'll stick with
> Linux!" and go somewhere else.
You are trying to use the same facts for arguing pro and contra the same
issue.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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|
Re: [indiana-discuss] screwdrivers - Re:
[advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and
the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 6:47 AM
in response to: joerg
|
|
On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > We should have an official community distribution that is prominent
> > and the other ones can be easily gotten to as well.
> >
> > If people have to read six paragraphs of text before they can do
> > anything useful; they'll likely just say "this sucks! I'll stick with
> > Linux!" and go somewhere else.
>
> You are trying to use the same facts for arguing pro and contra the same
> issue.
I don't think so. The point is that if the download process is complex
and involves forcing users to make "an educated choice" before they
can download something useful; they'll go somewhere else. When we have
a reference distribution (because there is absolutely no doubt in my
mind that we will; otherwise we will die) it should and must be
featured more prominently than other ones so most users will be able
to click and go.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Brandorr
brandorr@opensolaris...
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] screwdrivers - Re:
[advocacy-discuss] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 1:29 PM
in response to: plocher
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On 11/1/07, John Plocher <John dot Plocher at sun dot com> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > This is also a good example as "gimme a screwdriver" has the same level
> > of incompleteness as "gimme OpenSolaris".
>
> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
>
> If it is a bug (as I believe), how do we fix it?
John this reads as if you believe the existence of Nexenta, Shillix,
MartUX and Belenix are bugs? If so, I don't think it's the best way to
get your point across to Joerg. ;)
> If you don't think it is a bug, then we will have to agree to disagree.
> I don't believe this disagreement is necessarily fatal to our ability to
> work together.
John, in our trademark discussions you stated that OpenSolaris should
not be used as a standalone noun. As in Joerg's screwdriver analogy.
Am I missing something.
-Brian
>
> -John
> _______________________________________________
> trademark-policy-dev mailing list
> trademark-policy-dev at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/trademark-policy-dev
--
- Brian Gupta
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] screwdrivers - Re:
[advocacy-discuss] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris
name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 6:20 AM
in response to: Brandorr
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[I'm close to 200 messages behind in this discussion at this point...]
Brandorr wrote:
>> The Linux world asserts that this is a feature. Do you see it as a
>> bug or a feature for OpenSolaris?
>>
>> If it is a bug (as I believe), how do we fix it?
>
> John this reads as if you believe the existence of Nexenta, Shillix,
> MartUX and Belenix are bugs? If so, I don't think it's the best way to
> get your point across to Joerg. ;)
At this point, all of "our" distros are relatively compatible with
each other, unlike the general Linux world. If we can define (and
effectively sustain) a compatibility culture, we won't have this bug.
> John, in our trademark discussions you stated that OpenSolaris should
> not be used as a standalone noun. As in Joerg's screwdriver analogy.
> Am I missing something.
If we define a compatibility story, then, as Joerg says, it makes
sense to call the "thing that inplements and deploys exactly and only
those compatibility bits" OpenSolaris.
I don't believe for a minute that Indiana 10/07 is such a beast,
nor that Indiana 3/08 will limit itself to being only that subset.
-John
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Re: [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
screwdrivers - Re: [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the
OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 2, 2007 6:24 AM
in response to: plocher
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>At this point, all of "our" distros are relatively compatible with
>each other, unlike the general Linux world. If we can define (and
>effectively sustain) a compatibility culture, we won't have this bug.
Isn't that with the exception of Nexenta which has hidden away much
of Solaris userland?
Casper
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GB
Registered:
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:31 AM
in response to: dclarke
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On Nov 1, 2007, at 02:01, Dennis Clarke wrote:
>> So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris
>> and then
> we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight
> than word
> games.
I could not agree more with you there, Dennis. We are where we are.
And actually, it's pretty good :-)
S.
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DE
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 6:28 AM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps <webmink at sun dot com> wrote:
>
> On Nov 1, 2007, at 02:01, Dennis Clarke wrote:
> >> So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris
> >> and then
> > we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight
> > than word
> > games.
>
> I could not agree more with you there, Dennis. We are where we are.
> And actually, it's pretty good :-)
This did already fit to SchilliX in June 2005.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 5:26 AM
in response to: dclarke
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"Dennis Clarke" <dclarke at blastwave dot org> wrote:
>
> > James Carlson wrote:
> >> Jim Grisanzio writes:
> >>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> >>>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >>> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> >>> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> >>> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> >>> of the brand?
> >>
> >> I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
> >> "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
> >
> > You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
> > for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
>
> Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system.
>
> Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm).
>
> If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or
> Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the
> community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to
> Solaris.
A good example!
Let us decide that Sun first needs to call Solaris "UNIX" before a
OpenSolaris based distro is allowed to call itself "OpenSolaris".
Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system but you cannot call it "UNIX", it is still Solaris.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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566
From:
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 5:50 AM
in response to: joerg
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>> Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system.
>>
>> Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm).
>>
>> If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or
>> Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the
>> community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to
>> Solaris.
>
> A good example!
>
> Let us decide that Sun first needs to call Solaris "UNIX" before a
> OpenSolaris based distro is allowed to call itself "OpenSolaris".
>
> Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system but you cannot call it "UNIX", it is still Solaris.
One way or another, should OpenSolaris take off as Sun hopes, and have
entities of various sizes jump on the bandwagon and create distros, they
WILL differ and be incompatible. Just like over in Linux land.
By then however, the OpenSolaris moniker will have been wasted because
of the usual shitty marketing decisions. Sun's already starting to gain
street cred for being annoying to deal with via OpenOffice. OO however
has already a nice foothold and can afford some drama. OpenSolaris
however can't (yet anyway).
I hope Ian and however else is responsible for that decision wise up and
retract the distro name. They can claim that it was named "OpenSolaris
DP" because it was a test of the OS codebase in the wild, to retcon
everything, and no one would probably say anything.
-mg
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 6:03 AM
in response to: servo
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I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that
OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the
naming decision is reverted.
-mg
> One way or another, should OpenSolaris take off as Sun hopes, and have
> entities of various sizes jump on the bandwagon and create distros, they
> WILL differ and be incompatible. Just like over in Linux land.
>
> By then however, the OpenSolaris moniker will have been wasted because
> of the usual shitty marketing decisions. Sun's already starting to gain
> street cred for being annoying to deal with via OpenOffice. OO however
> has already a nice foothold and can afford some drama. OpenSolaris
> however can't (yet anyway).
>
> I hope Ian and however else is responsible for that decision wise up and
> retract the distro name. They can claim that it was named "OpenSolaris
> DP" because it was a test of the OS codebase in the wild, to retcon
> everything, and no one would probably say anything.
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 6:19 AM
in response to: servo
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On 01/11/2007, Mario Goebbels <me at tomservo dot cc> wrote:
> I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that
> OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the
> naming decision is reverted.
How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed
so many times before these past weeks.
Windows is obviously branded with the "Windows" name.
However, they also have compatibility branding such as "Designed for
Windows XP".
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 6:23 AM
in response to: Shawn Walker
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>> I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that
>> OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the
>> naming decision is reverted.
>
> How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed
> so many times before these past weeks.
It's just my opinion that if it's going to be used as compatibility
indicator, there shouldn't be a distro called like it. Unless it's
explicitely called "OpenSolaris Reference Distro".
-mg
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DE
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 6:56 AM
in response to: servo
|
|
Mario Goebbels <me at tomservo dot cc> wrote:
> >> I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that
> >> OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the
> >> naming decision is reverted.
> >
> > How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed
> > so many times before these past weeks.
>
> It's just my opinion that if it's going to be used as compatibility
> indicator, there shouldn't be a distro called like it. Unless it's
> explicitely called "OpenSolaris Reference Distro".
An "OpenSolaris Reference Distro" cannot be a distro intended for real use
as an "OpenSolaris Reference Distro" needs to miss all additional software
to allow a verification against the reference.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 3:41 PM
in response to: servo
|
|
On 01/11/2007, Mario Goebbels <me at tomservo dot cc> wrote:
> >> I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that
> >> OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the
> >> naming decision is reverted.
> >
> > How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed
> > so many times before these past weeks.
>
> It's just my opinion that if it's going to be used as compatibility
> indicator, there shouldn't be a distro called like it. Unless it's
> explicitely called "OpenSolaris Reference Distro".
Which wouldn't help the current situation as people would likely still
be incensed that anyone would dare call themselves OpenSolaris
anything (well at least in the distro name itself). This has echoes of
Nexenta's initial mistake of calling themselves GNU/Solaris.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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Re: [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev]
[advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Nov 1, 2007 5:24 AM
in response to: Ian Murdock
|
|
Ian Murdock <Ian dot Murdock at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> James Carlson wrote:
> > Jim Grisanzio writes:
> >> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> >>> "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> >> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> >> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> >> of the brand?
> >
> > I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't
> > "install Linux" -- without getting an immediate "which one?" question.
>
> You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products
> for or around "Linux", and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug.
We do not need to discuss whether it is a feature or not.
It is too late to avoid the same for OpenSolaris as Sun did miss the chance
to cooperate with SchilliX 2.5 years ago.
We already have more than _one_ single OpenSolaris distribution, you cannot
roll back the years.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 9:52 AM
in response to: jimgris
|
|
Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>
> > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
>
> Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> of the brand?
As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Shawn Walker
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Re: [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss]
Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Posted:
Oct 31, 2007 10:39 AM
in response to: joerg
|
|
On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling <Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
> > Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >
> > > I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called:
> > > "Sun OpenSolaris ...."
> >
> > Why would "Sun OpenSolaris" make sense? Actually, that expression has
> > been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the
> > confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use
> > of the brand?
>
> As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it.
That is incorrect; the proposed guidelines would allow them to use the
name with the single restriction that they could not call themselves
"OpenSolaris."
Sun is not the one using the trademark here; Sun is allowing an
OpenSolaris.org project called "Project Indiana" to use the trademark
to represent their project.
It would be no different if I had started "Project Wonkers" and gotten
Sun's permission to use the trademark.
--
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
"We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all
junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics
are not in our favor..." --Larry Wall
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