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Last Post:
Feb 8, 2007 2:21 PM
by: benr
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Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 6:44 PM
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Dennis's post on the GPLv3 thread:
"Let's fast forward two more years and if we have another mad rush of
people NOT joining this project what then? Another marketting fix and we
rename this to the Java Enterprise OpenSolaris project with Sun
Community Source License ( SCSL ) license added and on and on we go
trying to fix something."
got me thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
OpenSolaris.
Like Dennis, I've been here since the pilot, but unlike Dennis, my
contribution has been negligible. My excuse is simply time, I have a
hungry bank manager and kids to feed, so I don't have a lot of spare
time for what amounts to 'hobby' coding. I'm sure there are many others
out here in a similar position.
Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
work on the kernel, drivers and applications. On one had this shows the
quality of the engineering team at Sun, but on the other it puts us at a
disadvantage. I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
project. I'd like nothing better than to combine my two decades of
SunOs/Solaris and driver experience and make a real contribution to the
project, but I simply can't afford to.
The big question is how can we make this happen? Is there a demand from
corporate users willing to pay for drivers and functionality? If there
is, can Sun (who I assume know who wants what) through OpenSolaris
connect them with developers in the community able to do the work?
Ian.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:01 PM
in response to: ian
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
Oh, and before I forget, the bug reporting system being out of sync with actual progress does not help at all.
-Shawn
Message was edited by:
swalker
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:16 PM
in response to: swalker
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Shawn Walker wrote:
>I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
>
>
>
That's put me off as well, it adds cost (from the developer's
perspective). It will all come down to quality. Most opensource
projects have a number of developers with commit rights and at some
point, community developers on OpenSolaris will have to be trusted. But
in order to be trusted, they have to be able to contribute, which kind
of looks like a nasty chicken and egg situation.
That's why I favour robust unit tests where passing the tests gates the
putback.
Ian
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:24 AM
in response to: ian
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On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Ian Collins wrote:
> Shawn Walker wrote:
>
>> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
>>
>>
>>
> That's put me off as well, it adds cost (from the developer's
> perspective). It will all come down to quality. Most opensource
> projects have a number of developers with commit rights and at some
> point, community developers on OpenSolaris will have to be trusted. But
> in order to be trusted, they have to be able to contribute, which kind
> of looks like a nasty chicken and egg situation.
>
> That's why I favour robust unit tests where passing the tests gates the
> putback.
I'm with you all the way there, but then even internally at Sun it doesn't
work this way. We just _love_ review processes. Sometimes so much that
it's daunting and discouraging to go through them....
The code integration "process" isn't very streamlined. We have no "Google
Mondrian" to track development code from inception to integration and
automatically pull for / remind of review needs. Every group uses slightly
different ways of performing/requesting reviews or testing changes before
allowing commit, and none of them automated. Yes, it'd be absolutely great
to have something that neither incurs delays nor creates the feeling of
"not really wanted" with anyone. OpenSolaris _is_ already making this
better (from my point of view - inside the fence), but it's still quite a
way to go.
FrankH.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:33 PM
in response to: swalker
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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[b]Do not reply to me, I read the forums - my email address is invalid and I do feel bad I did nothing to fix it. [/b]
It was as easy to predict more than a year ago as it is today. In one of my posts I expressed the below (Oct 11, 2005) for which I got flamed more than once -
<Quote>
Let Sun create a workable, scalable development model around (Open)Solaris first. I pity the words "request" "sponsor" "ask" above. It's going in the same direction as OpenOffice.org - it's working but only with Sun employees doing the major heavy lifting, community presence is not that big and thus the whole thing doesn't scale upto the point where it should ideally...
</Quote>
I feel sad that more than a year later OpenSolaris development is still closed, bug reports are still vague at the best and for the people to contribute they have to make sure they don't kill their urge and enthusiasm before they can get a change or two in.
As a result, people don't feel like caring for OpenSolaris, if they do, Sun makes sure they go away by doing so much red taping, and the closed development model (no design/implementation discussions, no crisp, flaming hot discussions about how some part of code sucks and how it could be made to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their appetite and gather virtually no interest in the internals of OpenSolaris.
Classic example of how not to run an open source project.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:42 PM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> It was as easy to predict more than a year ago as it
> is today. In one of my posts I expressed the below
> (Oct 11, 2005) for which I got flamed more than once
> -
> Quote>
> Let Sun create a workable, scalable development model
> around (Open)Solaris first. I pity the words
> "request" "sponsor" "ask" above. It's going in the
> same direction as OpenOffice.org - it's working but
> only with Sun employees doing the major heavy
> lifting, community presence is not that big and thus
> the whole thing doesn't scale upto the point where it
> should ideally...
> </Quote>
>
> I feel sad that more than a year later OpenSolaris
> development is still closed, bug reports are still
> vague at the best and for the people to contribute
> they have to make sure they don't kill their urge and
> enthusiasm before they can get a change or two in.
Development is not completely closed, but it isn't nearly as open as many would like to see (myself included), that I will agree with. Bugs and integration are sore spots to be sure.
> As a result, people don't feel like caring for
> OpenSolaris, if they do, Sun makes sure they go away
> by doing so much red taping, and the closed
> development model (no design/implementation
> discussions, no crisp, flaming hot discussions about
> how some part of code sucks and how it could be made
> to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their
> appetite and gather virtually no interest in the
> internals of OpenSolaris.
>
> Classic example of how not to run an open source
> project.
I agree with some of your post, but the rest is simply untrue. There are plenty of design and implementation discussions. There have been plenty of good and bad words exchanged as well about particular features, etc. There have been discussions about code that sucks and code that does not. You can see a lot of this when it comes to ZFS and the ksh93 integration as examples.
Just look at the recent discussion on "serendipitous discovery" and /usr/gnu. If you think people aren't having passionate discussions about items related to OpenSolaris, I'm not sure how much attention you're paying.
I'm sure not every discussion that could or should be happening here "in the open" is, but a lot of them are, and more of them are happening every day.
-Shawn
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:57 PM
in response to: swalker
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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>
> I agree with some of your post, but the rest is
> simply untrue. There are plenty of design and
> implementation discussions. There have been plenty of
> good and bad words exchanged as well about particular
> features, etc. There have been discussions about code
> that sucks and code that does not. You can see a lot
> of this when it comes to ZFS and the ksh93
> integration as examples.
>
I did not see ksh93 discussion went anywhere. Or did it? Also I did not think that ZFS was designed in the open. So yeah, there are some pockets where there is some activity but as I said it is nowhere near where it should be if you are expecting concrete, free flowing contributions from people.
> Just look at the recent discussion on "serendipitous
> discovery" and /usr/gnu. If you think people aren't
> having passionate discussions about items related to
> OpenSolaris, I'm not sure how much attention you're
> paying.
>
I agree I don't follow each and every thing happening on OpenSolaris but I also think that I am fair in judging OpenSolaris based on the end results (How many significant community contributions).
> I'm sure not every discussion that could or should be
> happening here "in the open" is, but a lot of them
> are, and more of them are happening every day.
>
I was mostly looking at it from a code changes and core design perspective - Is there a place where people can see the commits made to {Open}Solaris code in real-time and can comment/review those changes and then commiters can respond to it? If there is a place like this, I think it is a good start.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 8:18 PM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> I did not see ksh93 discussion went anywhere. Or did
> it? Also I did not think that ZFS was designed in the
> open. So yeah, there are some pockets where there is
> some activity but as I said it is nowhere near where
> it should be if you are expecting concrete, free
> flowing contributions from people.
Yes, the ksh93 discussion did go somewhere. If you don't follow the community, you shouldn't evaluate it.
>
> > Just look at the recent discussion on
> "serendipitous
> > discovery" and /usr/gnu. If you think people
> aren't
> > having passionate discussions about items related
> to
> > OpenSolaris, I'm not sure how much attention
> you're
> > paying.
> >
> I agree I don't follow each and every thing happening
> on OpenSolaris but I also think that I am fair in
> judging OpenSolaris based on the end results (How
> many significant community contributions).
If you're talking strictly about total size of code contributions, I would agree, not enough has happened yet in my opinion.
> was mostly looking at it from a code changes and
> core design perspective - Is there a place where
> people can see the commits made to {Open}Solaris
> code in real-time and can comment/review those
> changes and then commiters can respond to it? If
> there is a place like this, I think it is a good
> start.
There is a place that lists the putback information, and people can comment on it on the lists here. I don't believe there is a place to see live commits, yet, but I could be wrong.
Putback logs are here:
http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/onnv_putback_logs/
Sponsor request status is here:
http://opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports/request_sponsor/
-Shawn
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 9:04 PM
in response to: sdestika
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On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 07:57:18PM -0800, S Destika wrote:
> >
> > I agree with some of your post, but the rest is
> > simply untrue. There are plenty of design and
> > implementation discussions. There have been plenty of
> > good and bad words exchanged as well about particular
> > features, etc. There have been discussions about code
> > that sucks and code that does not. You can see a lot
> > of this when it comes to ZFS and the ksh93
> > integration as examples.
> >
> I did not see ksh93 discussion went anywhere. Or did it? Also I did not think that ZFS was designed in the open. So yeah, there are some pockets where there is some activity but as I said it is nowhere near where it should be if you are expecting concrete, free flowing contributions from people.
If you don't know about the ksh93 discussion, why do you feel qualified
to say it didn't go anywhere?
ZFS was designed and mostly coded before we open sourced Solaris.
> > Just look at the recent discussion on "serendipitous
> > discovery" and /usr/gnu. If you think people aren't
> > having passionate discussions about items related to
> > OpenSolaris, I'm not sure how much attention you're
> > paying.
> >
> I agree I don't follow each and every thing happening on OpenSolaris but I also think that I am fair in judging OpenSolaris based on the end results (How many significant community contributions).
There is so much happening in individual projects and communities... how
are you determing what the "end results" are?
> > I'm sure not every discussion that could or should be
> > happening here "in the open" is, but a lot of them
> > are, and more of them are happening every day.
> >
> I was mostly looking at it from a code changes and core design perspective - Is there a place where people can see the commits made to {Open}Solaris code in real-time and can comment/review those changes and then commiters can respond to it? If there is a place like this, I think it is a good start.
onnv-notify & tools-discuss are two lists that come to mind.
-steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Josh Hurst
joshhurst@gmail.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:01 AM
in response to: sdestika
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On 1/31/07, S Destika <sdestika at excite dot com> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with some of your post, but the rest is
> > simply untrue. There are plenty of design and
> > implementation discussions. There have been plenty of
> > good and bad words exchanged as well about particular
> > features, etc. There have been discussions about code
> > that sucks and code that does not. You can see a lot
> > of this when it comes to ZFS and the ksh93
> > integration as examples.
> >
> I did not see ksh93 discussion went anywhere. Or did it?
Your looking at the wrong list. The ksh93 community has their own
list: ksh93-integration-discuss at opensolaris dot org
opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org is not the only list -
opensolaris.org runs a hundred lists.
Josh
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 7:48 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
>As a result, people don't feel like caring for OpenSolaris, if they do, Sun makes sure they go away by doing so much red taping, and the closed development model (no design/implementation discussions, no crisp, flaming hot discussions about how some part of code sucks and how it could be made to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their appetite and gather virtually no interest in the internals of OpenSolaris.
>
>
>
Oh there have been plenty of those discussions, you can't have been
looking in the right place.
Ian
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From:
JP
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 9:36 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
> [b]Do not reply to me, I read the forums - my email address is invalid and I do feel bad I did nothing to fix it. [/b]
>
> It was as easy to predict more than a year ago as it is today. In one of my posts I expressed the below (Oct 11, 2005) for which I got flamed more than once -
> <Quote>
> Let Sun create a workable, scalable development model around (Open)Solaris first. I pity the words "request" "sponsor" "ask" above. It's going in the same direction as OpenOffice.org - it's working but only with Sun employees doing the major heavy lifting, community presence is not that big and thus the whole thing doesn't scale upto the point where it should ideally...
> </Quote>
Oh, I think request-sponsor has been as successful as it could have been
given the circumstances. We needed a process to engage people but we
launched with pretty much zero infrastructure for open development. We
did what we could with what we had, and I view that as a good thing. So,
think of it just as a first step (albeit a big, long one :)). Also, the
code contributors have contributed a significant amount and have earned
substantial credibility as a result. Taking too long? Yep. But we are at
least moving in the right direction. If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't
defend it publically because I have confidence in the engineers working
these issues.
> I feel sad that more than a year later OpenSolaris development is still closed, bug reports are still vague at the best and for the people to contribute they have to make sure they don't kill their urge and enthusiasm before they can get a change or two in.
No need to feel sad. It's getting fixed. It's true that many things are
still internal (guilty as charged), but I think you may be going a bit
far characterizing our intent. We are not making people go away. We
screw up occasionally, but please understand that it's not intentional.
People who intentionally want do do harm to the OpenSolaris community
wouldn't survive on these lists.
> As a result, people don't feel like caring for OpenSolaris, if they do, Sun makes sure they go away by doing so much red taping, and the closed development model (no design/implementation discussions, no crisp, flaming hot discussions about how some part of code sucks and how it could be made to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their appetite and gather virtually no interest in the internals of OpenSolaris.
Some, don't care, sure, but many /do/ care and their numbers are
growing. There will be an OpenSolaris Day in India in a month or so, and
the numbers look extremely impressive. Sun runs the OpenSolaris Days,
granted, but there is a German OpenSolaris developer conference coming
shortly that was organized entirely outside Sun. And there was a lot of
interest in China and Korea as well for OpenSolaris Days.
Also, I just checked the Jive discussion forums. Since opening 20 months
ago, the project's lists/forums have generated 10,114,589 total views,
7,218,833 unique visitors, 21,033 threads, and 81,874 messages. That's
not bad for 20 months of work, don't you think? January was our biggest
month across the board for OpenSolaris conversations, and it was our
biggest month for registrations since launch as well. And many of these
conversations are pretty substantial. There are 177 community lists now
as well. So, none of that is development, per say, but it does
demonstrate that very many people care.
The OpenSolaris engineering team is aware -- painfully -- of the things
that need fixing on the project. Trust me on that. :) We'll get there.
Jim
> Classic example of how not to run an open source project.
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:45 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> Also, I just checked the Jive discussion forums. Since opening 20 months
> ago, the project's lists/forums have generated 10,114,589 total views,
> 7,218,833 unique visitors, 21,033 threads, and 81,874 messages.
and how many thousand "hoodie" spams now? 8-)
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:09 AM
in response to: alanc
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Alan Coopersmith wrote On 01/31/07 16:45,:
> Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
>> Also, I just checked the Jive discussion forums. Since opening 20
>> months ago, the project's lists/forums have generated 10,114,589 total
>> views, 7,218,833 unique visitors, 21,033 threads, and 81,874 messages.
>
>
> and how many thousand "hoodie" spams now? 8-)
Oh, not many ... :)
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Menlo Park, CA
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:14 AM
in response to: sdestika
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I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want. And now
there are problems with the automounter. Sigh.
It's not that we don't want to fix this. There are just a lot of
technical issues. The best thing you can do is to help out. Go check
out the Tools community and help! Folks there are working very hard,
but more hands won't hurt.
S Destika wrote:
> [b]Do not reply to me, I read the forums - my email address is invalid and I do feel bad I did nothing to fix it. [/b]
>
> It was as easy to predict more than a year ago as it is today. In one of my posts I expressed the below (Oct 11, 2005) for which I got flamed more than once -
> <Quote>
> Let Sun create a workable, scalable development model around (Open)Solaris first. I pity the words "request" "sponsor" "ask" above. It's going in the same direction as OpenOffice.org - it's working but only with Sun employees doing the major heavy lifting, community presence is not that big and thus the whole thing doesn't scale upto the point where it should ideally...
> </Quote>
>
> I feel sad that more than a year later OpenSolaris development is still closed, bug reports are still vague at the best and for the people to contribute they have to make sure they don't kill their urge and enthusiasm before they can get a change or two in.
>
> As a result, people don't feel like caring for OpenSolaris, if they do, Sun makes sure they go away by doing so much red taping, and the closed development model (no design/implementation discussions, no crisp, flaming hot discussions about how some part of code sucks and how it could be made to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their appetite and gather virtually no interest in the internals of OpenSolaris.
>
> Classic example of how not to run an open source project.
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
--
Stephen Harpster
Director, Open Source Software
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:42 AM
in response to: harpster
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Stephen Harpster wrote:
> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want. And now
> there are problems with the automounter. Sigh.
>
> It's not that we don't want to fix this. There are just a lot of
> technical issues. The best thing you can do is to help out. Go check
> out the Tools community and help! Folks there are working very hard,
> but more hands won't hurt.
>
I'm sorry, but as I said in my reply to Darren, these are distinct problems.
Of the things pointed out below, none of them relate to the SCM
implementation, or work on tools that *we* can actually do.
The bug system, the RTI system, and more Sun engineers talking on the
opensolaris lists seem to be what are hinted toward, nothing that can be
done in or by the Tools community can change any of those 3 things.
-- Rich
>
> S Destika wrote:
>> [b]Do not reply to me, I read the forums - my email address is invalid
>> and I do feel bad I did nothing to fix it. [/b]
>>
>> It was as easy to predict more than a year ago as it is today. In one
>> of my posts I expressed the below (Oct 11, 2005) for which I got
>> flamed more than once -
>> <Quote>
>> Let Sun create a workable, scalable development model around
>> (Open)Solaris first. I pity the words "request" "sponsor" "ask" above.
>> It's going in the same direction as OpenOffice.org - it's working but
>> only with Sun employees doing the major heavy lifting, community
>> presence is not that big and thus the whole thing doesn't scale upto
>> the point where it should ideally...
>> </Quote>
>>
>> I feel sad that more than a year later OpenSolaris development is
>> still closed, bug reports are still vague at the best and for the
>> people to contribute they have to make sure they don't kill their urge
>> and enthusiasm before they can get a change or two in.
>> As a result, people don't feel like caring for OpenSolaris, if they
>> do, Sun makes sure they go away by doing so much red taping, and the
>> closed development model (no design/implementation discussions, no
>> crisp, flaming hot discussions about how some part of code sucks and
>> how it could be made to not suck etc.) means people do not whet their
>> appetite and gather virtually no interest in the internals of
>> OpenSolaris.
>>
>> Classic example of how not to run an open source project.
>>
>>
>> This message posted from opensolaris.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
>> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>>
>
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Josh Hurst
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:13 AM
in response to: harpster
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On 1/31/07, Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> wrote:
> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want.
How do you want to stimulate the growth of the Opensolaris community?
That may be more important right now. Opensolaris.org remains a small
fraction, if not the smallest, out of the Open Unix cake composed from
NetBSD, FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, Darwin, Linux and Opensolaris and
I don't see it GROWING. Just the same people all the time. The request
sponsor list doesn't grow much either in terms of new contributors
(just the part with the unsponsored items grows). Just the same people
all the time.
Josh
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Christopher Mahan
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:18 AM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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Please forgive the newbiness. Can Open Solaris be built entirely from source? Josh Hurst <joshhurst at gmail dot com> wrote: On 1/31/07, Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> wrote:
> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want.
How do you want to stimulate the growth of the Opensolaris community?
That may be more important right now. Opensolaris.org remains a small
fraction, if not the smallest, out of the Open Unix cake composed from
NetBSD, FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, Darwin, Linux and Opensolaris and
I don't see it GROWING. Just the same people all the time. The request
sponsor list doesn't grow much either in terms of new contributors
(just the part with the unsponsored items grows). Just
the same people
all the time.
Josh
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</Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo dot com chris dot mahan at gmail dot com http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:46 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 11:18:04AM -0800, Christopher Mahan wrote:
>
> Please forgive the newbiness.
> Can Open Solaris be built entirely from source?
Not at the moment; there is one library (libc_i18n) that is a closed
(but freely redistributable) binary that is required for a minimal
build.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:29 AM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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Hey,
Josh Hurst wrote:
> On 1/31/07, Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> wrote:
>> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
>> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want.
>
> How do you want to stimulate the growth of the Opensolaris community?
> That may be more important right now. Opensolaris.org remains a small
> fraction, if not the smallest, out of the Open Unix cake composed from
> NetBSD, FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, Darwin, Linux and Opensolaris and
> I don't see it GROWING. Just the same people all the time. The request
> sponsor list doesn't grow much either in terms of new contributors
> (just the part with the unsponsored items grows). Just the same people
> all the time.
Give us a break, OpenSolaris is only barely out the door - there's still a
*huge* amount of work to do before things can head in the right direction.
It takes an infinitely large time and work to bootstrap a community - for most
cases it's not an overnight thing. Fortunately OpenSolaris has some fantastic
technology, and best of all some amazingly talented people to tempt many a
developer and general contributor towards the project.
There may never be a community phenomenon quite like Linux in terms of numbers
and the creation of a grass roots environment.
Glynn
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Josh Hurst
joshhurst@gmail.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:40 AM
in response to: gman
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On 1/31/07, Glynn Foster <Glynn dot Foster at sun dot com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Josh Hurst wrote:
> > On 1/31/07, Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> wrote:
> >> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
> >> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want.
> >
> > How do you want to stimulate the growth of the Opensolaris community?
> > That may be more important right now. Opensolaris.org remains a small
> > fraction, if not the smallest, out of the Open Unix cake composed from
> > NetBSD, FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, Darwin, Linux and Opensolaris and
> > I don't see it GROWING. Just the same people all the time. The request
> > sponsor list doesn't grow much either in terms of new contributors
> > (just the part with the unsponsored items grows). Just the same people
> > all the time.
>
> Give us a break, OpenSolaris is only barely out the door - there's still a
> *huge* amount of work to do before things can head in the right direction.
>
> It takes an infinitely large time and work to bootstrap a community - for most
> cases it's not an overnight thing. Fortunately OpenSolaris has some fantastic
> technology, and best of all some amazingly talented people to tempt many a
> developer and general contributor towards the project.
>
> There may never be a community phenomenon quite like Linux in terms of numbers
> and the creation of a grass roots environment.
You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
Josh
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:52 AM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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Hey,
Josh Hurst wrote:
> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
Agree.
a) Have you contributed any code?
b) Have you contributed any of your time to helping make that
barrier to entry lower?
Glynn
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:53 AM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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Josh Hurst wrote:
>
> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
>
> Josh
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
Why do you have to get your patches integrated?
Why can't people go to your web-site and get your contributions?
Seems to have worked for frkit as provided by Casper....
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:14 PM
in response to: Tom Haynes
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Tom Haynes wrote:
> Josh Hurst wrote:
>>
>> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
>> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
>> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
>> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
>> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
>> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
>> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
>> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
>> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
>>
>> Josh
> Why do you have to get your patches integrated?
>
> Why can't people go to your web-site and get your contributions?
>
...
I can't easily word a response to those questions, but I can only imagine
they come from a complete and utter misunderstanding of this conversation,
and the purposes of the project in general.
The whole point is that people can contribute their changes.
The whole point is that those changes go back into a source tree shared by all.
-- Rich
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:13 PM
in response to: richlowe
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Richard Lowe wrote:
> Tom Haynes wrote:
>> Josh Hurst wrote:
>>>
>>> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
>>> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
>>> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
>>> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
>>> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
>>> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
>>> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
>>> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
>>> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
>>>
>>> Josh
>
>> Why do you have to get your patches integrated?
>>
>> Why can't people go to your web-site and get your contributions?
>>
>
> ...
>
> I can't easily word a response to those questions, but I can only
> imagine they come from a complete and utter misunderstanding of this
> conversation, and the purposes of the project in general.
>
> The whole point is that people can contribute their changes.
> The whole point is that those changes go back into a source tree
> shared by all.
>
> -- Rich
>
If someone makes changes to OpenSolaris and Sun decides not to take
them, does that
invalidate the changes?
Look at the Linux kernel debugger work that wasn't being taken back because
Linus didn't believe in kernel debuggers. People still found those
changes useful.
Right now, OpenSolaris implies Sun. It doesn't have to. You could take
the latest
source code drop and fork it for your development effort. Lets say
someone decides
to use OpenSolaris to control an appliance. They take the fork and are
careful to
not take new changes because it will cause their QA cycle to restart.
They ship
their product and as part of being good open source citizens, they
provide their
source tree on the install CD and on their website.
Perhaps during the development process, they sent patches back to the
community. But because they had no desire to pull a new drop, they didn't
care whether or not the changes got in right away.
Is this an OpenSolaris system or not?
My point is do not get too worked up into whether or not Sun pulls your
changes
back into their gate - that is not what makes your contribution
OpenSolaris or not.
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:21 PM
in response to: Tom Haynes
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On 31-Jan-07, at 1:13 PM, Tom Haynes wrote:
>
> Right now, OpenSolaris implies Sun. It doesn't have to. You could
> take the latest
> source code drop and fork it for your development effort.
Not while critical pieces of libc are closed you can't. This very
scenario you describe is currently impossible due to Sun's
restrictions on parts of libc
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:25 PM
in response to: Tom Haynes
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Tom Haynes wrote:
> Richard Lowe wrote:
>> Tom Haynes wrote:
>>> Josh Hurst wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
>>>> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
>>>> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
>>>> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
>>>> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
>>>> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
>>>> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
>>>> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
>>>> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>
>>> Why do you have to get your patches integrated?
>>>
>>> Why can't people go to your web-site and get your contributions?
>>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I can't easily word a response to those questions, but I can only
>> imagine they come from a complete and utter misunderstanding of this
>> conversation, and the purposes of the project in general.
>>
>> The whole point is that people can contribute their changes.
>> The whole point is that those changes go back into a source tree
>> shared by all.
>>
>> -- Rich
>>
> If someone makes changes to OpenSolaris and Sun decides not to take
> them, does that
> invalidate the changes?
>
> Look at the Linux kernel debugger work that wasn't being taken back because
> Linus didn't believe in kernel debuggers. People still found those
> changes useful.
>
> Right now, OpenSolaris implies Sun. It doesn't have to. You could take
> the latest
> source code drop and fork it for your development effort. Lets say
> someone decides
> to use OpenSolaris to control an appliance. They take the fork and are
> careful to
> not take new changes because it will cause their QA cycle to restart.
> They ship
> their product and as part of being good open source citizens, they
> provide their
> source tree on the install CD and on their website.
>
> Perhaps during the development process, they sent patches back to the
> community. But because they had no desire to pull a new drop, they didn't
> care whether or not the changes got in right away.
>
> Is this an OpenSolaris system or not?
>
> My point is do not get too worked up into whether or not Sun pulls your
> changes
> back into their gate - that is not what makes your contribution
> OpenSolaris or not.
>
Modulo the work needed to make this practically true (which is in progress)
they are NOT Sun's gates. They are the OpenSolaris gates, and everyone
involved with them should be treated as *equal*.
Yes, it's possible (trivial even!) to maintain your work outside of the
gate, and never integrate it at all, and it would still be valuable work.
But it's impossible to deny that the desire to actually *integrate* that
work, and get it to the widest possible audience is a large factor.
Seeing a response in a thread about making our development process better
that seemed, at its heart, to suggest that a person shouldn't care about
ever integrating ones work was, and is, frankly disheartening.
-- Rich
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:09 PM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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>You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
>allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
>submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
>very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
>the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
>just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
>encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
>rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
>Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
In some cases the time it takes to integrate is too long and we
should probably be a bit more proactive; Sun not being in the black
for quite some time has stretched engineering resources to its limits
and OpenSolaris integration work is done based on similar prioritizing.
In some cases, the integration started out as simple and then turned
into something a little bit more complicated.
As for ksh93, I think that actually went very well; it's precisely
how such a project would have happened inside Sun (and it may explain
some of the reasons why we did not do it ourselves; by being in the
open we could closely involve the maintainers of the main source
base)
I don't think that you can judge that as an outsider; and you will
remain an outsider (even inside Sun) until you've run through the
complicated process of integrated a major piece of software in
Solaris.
It's easy to see this as just a little bit of paperwork or perhaps
final tollbooth. But once you've been through it, you realize you
get a lot of meaningful input; you realize you should start soliciting
such input long before you think you're done, long before you've
even started writing code/porting/integrating. You realize this because
the end product improves, both your contribution to OpenSolaris and
OpenSolaris itself.
You'll be enlightened. But it is baptism by fire.
Oh, and when did kprobes and ReiserFS integrate?
Casper
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:54 PM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>I don't think that you can judge that as an outsider; and you will
>remain an outsider (even inside Sun) until you've run through the
>complicated process of integrated a major piece of software in
>Solaris.
>
>It's easy to see this as just a little bit of paperwork or perhaps
>final tollbooth. But once you've been through it, you realize you
>get a lot of meaningful input; you realize you should start soliciting
>such input long before you think you're done, long before you've
>even started writing code/porting/integrating. You realize this because
>the end product improves, both your contribution to OpenSolaris and
>OpenSolaris itself.
>
>You'll be enlightened. But it is baptism by fire.
>
>
>
Would this be an area where the community can help? I spent a lot of
time streamlining the software development and release process at my
last job. That's why, as an outside contributor, I can drop them code
and let the automatic test and release process do the rest.
I have worked with many what I would call traditional development shops
and I know how processes become entrenched. But things can change and
in my opinion, in the new world of open development, they have to.
Ian
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:59 PM
in response to: ian
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>Would this be an area where the community can help? I spent a lot of
>time streamlining the software development and release process at my
>last job. That's why, as an outside contributor, I can drop them code
>and let the automatic test and release process do the rest.
Of course.
>I have worked with many what I would call traditional development shops
>and I know how processes become entrenched. But things can change and
>in my opinion, in the new world of open development, they have to.
Perhaps so; but we don't want to compromise o quality :-)
I think, though, that you would need the "baptism by fire" first;
a bit of a Catch-22, but in my experience it was a real eye opener.
Casper
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:44 PM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>>Would this be an area where the community can help? I spent a lot of
>>time streamlining the software development and release process at my
>>last job. That's why, as an outside contributor, I can drop them code
>>and let the automatic test and release process do the rest.
>>
>>
>
>Of course.
>
>
>
>>I have worked with many what I would call traditional development shops
>>and I know how processes become entrenched. But things can change and
>>in my opinion, in the new world of open development, they have to.
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps so; but we don't want to compromise o quality :-)
>
>
>
Me neither, that's where all the levels of testing and putback gates
come into play.
>I think, though, that you would need the "baptism by fire" first;
>a bit of a Catch-22, but in my experience it was a real eye opener.
>
>
>
Oh for sure, one has to know how a process works in order to propose
changes that aren't pure speculation.
Ian
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:05 PM
in response to: casper
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--- Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
> Perhaps so; but we don't want to compromise o quality :-)
>
> I think, though, that you would need the "baptism by fire" first;
> a bit of a Catch-22, but in my experience it was a real eye opener.
I feel maybe we're getting closer to the issue. I think a lot of
people are put off by the perceived complexity of submitting code to
OpenSolaris. I also think that not compromising on quality is a good
goal, but that you have to understand that the community only
produces Very Good Code only through an iterative process. I think it
has to start with "barely works", proceed to "works in most cases",
on to "works all the time on all platforms", followed by "we made it
relatively fast" to finally "it's screaming fast". I think that
expecting one person to follow through from start to finish by
himself is too harsh, and only a few very motivated people will do
it. I think you need to look at something like Debian, maybe having a
unstable release, where everybody and their brother can go check in
code that may break stuff, and then the community members can come in
and find bugs, talk about them, fix them, and encourage/support each
other. That would, I think, really chafe the Sun Engineering Way, but
I am fairly confident it would get more people involved, regardless
of license.
As far as the patent/NDA encumbered libs, can could OpenSolaris
Unstable even run without them, or with empty/minimal functionality
wrappers? I'm asking because someone will want to compile code
locally and see if it even runs before sending in diffs.
Also, I would look at allowing people to check in either x86 or sparc
code, letting the community work on the other. As someone else
mentioned, I imagine very few people will have both types of
machines.
Thoughts?
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:19 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
>--- Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>
>
>>Perhaps so; but we don't want to compromise o quality :-)
>>
>>I think, though, that you would need the "baptism by fire" first;
>>a bit of a Catch-22, but in my experience it was a real eye opener.
>>
>>
>
>
>I feel maybe we're getting closer to the issue. I think a lot of
>people are put off by the perceived complexity of submitting code to
>OpenSolaris.
>
In my case it's more a matter of time. I can live with process, having
been a developer for a long time :)
>I also think that not compromising on quality is a good
>goal, but that you have to understand that the community only
>produces Very Good Code only through an iterative process. I think it
>has to start with "barely works", proceed to "works in most cases",
>on to "works all the time on all platforms", followed by "we made it
>relatively fast" to finally "it's screaming fast".
>
OK, provided the first three occur before the code finds its way back.
I also believe strongly that such an iterative approach can only work if
stringent tests for the code exist, preferably before the code is
written. Then the changes made to get to "it's screaming fast" can be
made without regression.
>I think that
>expecting one person to follow through from start to finish by
>himself is too harsh, and only a few very motivated people will do
>it.
>
I disagree, the developer(s) have to see the process through, you can't
just lob the code over the wall and hope someone will catch it.
>I think you need to look at something like Debian, maybe having a
>unstable release, where everybody and their brother can go check in
>code that may break stuff, and then the community members can come in
>and find bugs, talk about them, fix them, and encourage/support each
>other. That would, I think, really chafe the Sun Engineering Way, but
>I am fairly confident it would get more people involved, regardless
>of license.
>
>
>
Sound like a recipe for chaos to me, but I haven't been involved with
Debian. As a professional developer, I take it as my responsibility
that any code I put back is fully tested and doesn't break the trunk
build. The Debian way sounds too much like the hackers school of
lobbing code over the wall to QA and let them find the bugs, which I
detest.
>
>Also, I would look at allowing people to check in either x86 or sparc
>code, letting the community work on the other. As someone else
>mentioned, I imagine very few people will have both types of
>machines.
>
>
>
I think that if someone is unwilling or unable to work with bot
architectures, they should pair on a task with someone from the other
camp and jointly put back code for both.
>Thoughts?
>
>
>
Many!
Ian
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:58 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
|
|
>I feel maybe we're getting closer to the issue. I think a lot of
>people are put off by the perceived complexity of submitting code to
>OpenSolaris. I also think that not compromising on quality is a good
>goal, but that you have to understand that the community only
>produces Very Good Code only through an iterative process. I think it
>has to start with "barely works", proceed to "works in most cases",
>on to "works all the time on all platforms", followed by "we made it
>relatively fast" to finally "it's screaming fast". I think that
>expecting one person to follow through from start to finish by
>himself is too harsh, and only a few very motivated people will do
>it. I think you need to look at something like Debian, maybe having a
>unstable release, where everybody and their brother can go check in
>code that may break stuff, and then the community members can come in
>and find bugs, talk about them, fix them, and encourage/support each
>other. That would, I think, really chafe the Sun Engineering Way, but
>I am fairly confident it would get more people involved, regardless
>of license.
At Sun we have no tolerance for "works some of the time" or even
"works in most cases" code. At least not in the main branch.
This is why we have "projects" which are by and large experimental
branches.
In the main branch, I can't see any reason for code which does not
work.
When we created the development process, we very much went for a
"cut to size" approach; the bigger the project the bigger the overhead;
consider it a flat rate tax. ksh93 is huge as a project and so it
pays a large tax; changes limited to a few lines pay a much smaller
tax (though there's a minimum fee, I would gather)
>As far as the patent/NDA encumbered libs, can could OpenSolaris
>Unstable even run without them, or with empty/minimal functionality
>wrappers? I'm asking because someone will want to compile code
>locally and see if it even runs before sending in diffs.
You will need and can have the binary.
>Also, I would look at allowing people to check in either x86 or sparc
>code, letting the community work on the other. As someone else
>mentioned, I imagine very few people will have both types of
>machines.
I think there's supposed to be a test pool in future.
Casper
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
|
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 3:23 PM
in response to: casper
|
|
--- Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
> >I feel maybe we're getting closer to the issue. I think a lot of
> >people are put off by the perceived complexity of submitting code
> to
> >OpenSolaris. I also think that not compromising on quality is a
> good
> >goal, but that you have to understand that the community only
> >produces Very Good Code only through an iterative process. I think
> it
> >has to start with "barely works", proceed to "works in most
> cases",
> >on to "works all the time on all platforms", followed by "we made
> it
> >relatively fast" to finally "it's screaming fast". I think that
> >expecting one person to follow through from start to finish by
> >himself is too harsh, and only a few very motivated people will do
> >it. I think you need to look at something like Debian, maybe
> having a
> >unstable release, where everybody and their brother can go check
> in
> >code that may break stuff, and then the community members can come
> in
> >and find bugs, talk about them, fix them, and encourage/support
> each
> >other. That would, I think, really chafe the Sun Engineering Way,
> but
> >I am fairly confident it would get more people involved,
> regardless
> >of license.
>
> At Sun we have no tolerance for "works some of the time" or even
> "works in most cases" code. At least not in the main branch.
What I mean was
--Works in x86 32bit but not in 64bit, and not in Sparc
--Works with Bash but not ksh
--Works with single core but not dual or even 8 cores
--Works with cli but crashes X Window
etc.
> This is why we have "projects" which are by and large experimental
> branches.
Can a "project" be long-lived enough to allow for long-term
development by a largish team (like doing an 12 month project for a
team of 15 without getting hopelessly away from the main branch?
> In the main branch, I can't see any reason for code which does not
> work.
Could you see dog-slow code (but working correctly) code in the main
branch? For example, a utility written in Python rather than C/C++?
> When we created the development process, we very much went for a
> "cut to size" approach; the bigger the project the bigger the
> overhead;
> consider it a flat rate tax. ksh93 is huge as a project and so it
> pays a large tax; changes limited to a few lines pay a much smaller
> tax (though there's a minimum fee, I would gather)
I see.
> >As far as the patent/NDA encumbered libs, can could OpenSolaris
> >Unstable even run without them, or with empty/minimal
> functionality
> >wrappers? I'm asking because someone will want to compile code
> >locally and see if it even runs before sending in diffs.
>
> You will need and can have the binary.
Could you humor me and tell me, in your opinion, what a team composed
entirely of non-Sun people would have to do to reverse-engineer the
binary-only code? Pull a samba?
> >Also, I would look at allowing people to check in either x86 or
> sparc
> >code, letting the community work on the other. As someone else
> >mentioned, I imagine very few people will have both types of
> >machines.
>
> I think there's supposed to be a test pool in future.
I see.
Thanks for the comments.
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:32 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
|
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>What I mean was
> --Works in x86 32bit but not in 64bit, and not in Sparc
> --Works with Bash but not ksh
> --Works with single core but not dual or even 8 cores
> --Works with cli but crashes X Window
>etc.
None of these are considered acceptable at Sun.
>Can a "project" be long-lived enough to allow for long-term
>development by a largish team (like doing an 12 month project for a
>team of 15 without getting hopelessly away from the main branch?
Yes, I don't see why not. Development does not happen in the main
branch; the main branch takes finished projects.
>Could you see dog-slow code (but working correctly) code in the main
>branch? For example, a utility written in Python rather than C/C++?
Correctness is very important; the only rule performance is "no
performance regression".
>Could you humor me and tell me, in your opinion, what a team composed
> entirely of non-Sun people would have to do to reverse-engineer the
>binary-only code? Pull a samba?
Well, Samba is easy because it's over the net; the libc interfaces
are relatively straightforward also. The device drivers not so
much.
Casper
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 12:01 AM
in response to: casper
|
|
--- Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
> >What I mean was
> > --Works in x86 32bit but not in 64bit, and not in Sparc
> > --Works with Bash but not ksh
> > --Works with single core but not dual or even 8 cores
> > --Works with cli but crashes X Window
> >etc.
>
> None of these are considered acceptable at Sun.
As a finished project I assume. Ok, fair enough.
> >Can a "project" be long-lived enough to allow for long-term
> >development by a largish team (like doing an 12 month project for
> a
> >team of 15 without getting hopelessly away from the main branch?
>
> Yes, I don't see why not. Development does not happen in the main
> branch; the main branch takes finished projects.
Again fair enough. This would be equivalent to the Debian Stable
Distro, if you permit me the comparison.
> >Could you see dog-slow code (but working correctly) code in the
> main
> >branch? For example, a utility written in Python rather than
> C/C++?
>
> Correctness is very important; the only rule performance is "no
> performance regression".
Could performance regression be acceptable if there is, let's say,
tangible development potential? For example: a tool is reimplemented
in Python to allow very competent python devs to "take it to the next
level"?
As an aside, how do you feel about Python (the C flavor) being used
in the toolset?
For another example, would a slower free and open-source
implementation of the currently binary-only items be considered,
strictly on the merit that they might make the
full-distro-from-source possible?
> >Could you humor me and tell me, in your opinion, what a team
> composed
> > entirely of non-Sun people would have to do to reverse-engineer
> the
> >binary-only code? Pull a samba?
> Well, Samba is easy because it's over the net; the libc interfaces
> are relatively straightforward also. The device drivers not so
> much.
Let's assume that OpenSolaris packages the device drivers as a
purchasable add-on (for those who need that stuff), how feasible then
does it become to reverse-engineer the rest of the binary stuff, for
non-Sun people? Is it a matter of months for a team of skilled
professional c/c++ coders? Weeks? days? More like a year?
I ask because I really want to be able to point to a fully
buildable-from-source OpenSolaris entirely under CDDL, an OSI
Open-Source license. And I would really like to have that around the
same time Java is out on GPLv2.
Thank you for your responses.
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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US
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 5:43 AM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
|
|
Christopher Mahan writes:
> Could performance regression be acceptable if there is, let's say,
> tangible development potential? For example: a tool is reimplemented
> in Python to allow very competent python devs to "take it to the next
> level"?
Sure. You just need to be explicit about what you're doing, and the
tradeoffs involved.
If the "regression" means that an ON build that, on our new build
machines, currently takes about 1 hour instead takes 1 day, then it's
likely that you'll be hurting too many people, and the decision is
harder -- the benefit better be really darned obvious. If it has a
small impact and the payoff is large, then it's possible that you'll
have an easier time convincing people that it's worthwhile.
It's all about the details. You're dealing with people here.
> For another example, would a slower free and open-source
> implementation of the currently binary-only items be considered,
> strictly on the merit that they might make the
> full-distro-from-source possible?
Absolutely.
> Let's assume that OpenSolaris packages the device drivers as a
> purchasable add-on (for those who need that stuff), how feasible then
> does it become to reverse-engineer the rest of the binary stuff, for
> non-Sun people? Is it a matter of months for a team of skilled
> professional c/c++ coders? Weeks? days? More like a year?
Coders vary by several orders of magnitude in competence, so it's hard
to give a good answer.
I'd have to guess that it's very likely at least "months" -- if you
mean absolutely _all_ of the binary-only bits for all of the
platforms. It may actually be impossible due to legal and other
restrictions. However, I suspect that key bits (such as the i18n
ones) are much smaller tasks.
> I ask because I really want to be able to point to a fully
> buildable-from-source OpenSolaris entirely under CDDL, an OSI
> Open-Source license. And I would really like to have that around the
> same time Java is out on GPLv2.
We all would, but it's a matter of practicalities. You don't have
that with Linux or BSD, either, if you take things such as wireless
drivers into account.
--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking <james dot d dot carlson at sun dot com>
Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677
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Posts:
3,793
From:
GB
Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 3:40 AM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
|
|
Christopher Mahan wrote:
> What I mean was
> --Works in x86 32bit but not in 64bit, and not in Sparc
You broke my laptop it runs 64 bit and you broke my NFS server it is
SPARC.
In specific cases this one might actually be okay if it is functionality
that only applies to x86 in 32bit and there is no SPARC equivalent
hardware. Say an old driver for an ISA card that can't physically be
put into any AMD64 or SPARC machine.
> --Works with Bash but not ksh
Depends.
> --Works with single core but not dual or even 8 cores
You broke my friends laptop because it is dual core, you broke my build
machine the main gate machine and the home directory server for the
majority of the Sun employees in Menlo Park CA (yes that machine gets
latest and greatest bits as does the gate machine and many developers
workstations, laptops). Any it breaks the Sun Ray server I'm currently
using to type this email.
> --Works with cli but crashes X Window
Crashing X is very bad, thats denial of service.
None of those are acceptable.
>> This is why we have "projects" which are by and large experimental
>> branches.
>
> Can a "project" be long-lived enough to allow for long-term
> development by a largish team (like doing an 12 month project for a
> team of 15 without getting hopelessly away from the main branch?
It certainly can. Let me give you a real example of a current
OpenSolaris.org hosted project. The crypto project. While it just very
recently appeared on OpenSolaris.org the project itself has existed in
an ongoing development for more than 5 years now. It took us about 3
years of internal development with weekly resync to the main branch (the
ON consolidation gate) before we integrated any code. Since then we
have had smaller project tasks some of which take a week others take
months and some have taken as long as 6-7 months of work off the main
branch before integration. We fully expect this to continue in a
similar way not that we are hosting our work in the open and doing our
design in the open. Something will be small others will be much bigger.
The other thing that happens is that what is now the OpenSolaris.org KMF
project was originally part of the Crypto project, but it was deemed
sufficiently large that it was factored out into its own project (before
OpenSolaris started BTW).
--
Darren J Moffat
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 9:22 AM
in response to: darrenm
|
|
--- Darren J Moffat <Darren dot Moffat at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Christopher Mahan wrote:
> > What I mean was
> > --Works in x86 32bit but not in 64bit, and not in Sparc
>
> You broke my laptop it runs 64 bit and you broke my NFS server it
> is
> SPARC.
>
> In specific cases this one might actually be okay if it is
> functionality
> that only applies to x86 in 32bit and there is no SPARC equivalent
> hardware. Say an old driver for an ISA card that can't physically
> be
> put into any AMD64 or SPARC machine.
>
> > --Works with Bash but not ksh
>
> Depends.
>
> > --Works with single core but not dual or even 8 cores
>
> You broke my friends laptop because it is dual core, you broke my
> build
> machine the main gate machine and the home directory server for the
>
> majority of the Sun employees in Menlo Park CA (yes that machine
> gets
> latest and greatest bits as does the gate machine and many
> developers
> workstations, laptops). Any it breaks the Sun Ray server I'm
> currently
> using to type this email.
>
> > --Works with cli but crashes X Window
>
> Crashing X is very bad, thats denial of service.
>
> None of those are acceptable.
>
> >> This is why we have "projects" which are by and large
> experimental
> >> branches.
> >
> > Can a "project" be long-lived enough to allow for long-term
> > development by a largish team (like doing an 12 month project for
> a
> > team of 15 without getting hopelessly away from the main branch?
>
> It certainly can. Let me give you a real example of a current
> OpenSolaris.org hosted project. The crypto project. While it just
> very
> recently appeared on OpenSolaris.org the project itself has existed
> in
> an ongoing development for more than 5 years now. It took us about
> 3
> years of internal development with weekly resync to the main branch
> (the
> ON consolidation gate) before we integrated any code. Since then
> we
> have had smaller project tasks some of which take a week others
> take
> months and some have taken as long as 6-7 months of work off the
> main
> branch before integration. We fully expect this to continue in a
> similar way not that we are hosting our work in the open and doing
> our
> design in the open. Something will be small others will be much
> bigger.
>
> The other thing that happens is that what is now the
> OpenSolaris.org KMF
> project was originally part of the Crypto project, but it was
> deemed
> sufficiently large that it was factored out into its own project
> (before
> OpenSolaris started BTW).
>
Thanks for the feedback. Interesting.
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:44 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
Ian Collins wrote:
> Would this be an area where the community can help? I spent a lot of
> time streamlining the software development and release process at my
> last job. That's why, as an outside contributor, I can drop them code
> and let the automatic test and release process do the rest.
Please come on over to the arc-discuss community and help us re-engineer
our processes!
-John
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Christoph Hellwig
hch@infradead.org
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 5:21 AM
in response to: casper
|
|
On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 09:09:20PM +0100, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
> Oh, and when did kprobes and ReiserFS integrate?
In Opensolaris? Not at all. In Linux which is probably offtopic
here it's 2004 (kprobes) and 2001 (reiserfs).
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 5:39 AM
in response to: Christoph Hellwig
|
|
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 09:09:20PM +0100, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>
>
>> Oh, and when did kprobes and ReiserFS integrate?
>
> In Opensolaris? Not at all. In Linux which is probably offtopic
> here it's 2004 (kprobes) and 2001 (reiserfs).
How about lkcd and reiserfs4 ?
/me just kidding.
All opensource projects incur delays when trying to merge "upstream". Some
more, some less, some never make it. Too much personal vendetta can kill a
lot ... including motivation on all sides ...
But then, I do not see how this problem is opensolaris-specific.
FrankH.
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:17 PM
in response to: Josh Hurst
|
|
Josh Hurst wrote:
> You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
> allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
> submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
> very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
> the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
> just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
> encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
> rejected" is the current official slogan of Opensolaris.org
> Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
I can fully understand your frustration. In an ideal world all the
infrastructure we needed to make community contributions quick and easy
would exist outside of Sun's corporate firewall, but it doesn't. And we
can't just ditch what we have internally and move it all outside the
firewall. For example our bug tracking system is used by virtually all
Sun products, and contains confidential information, both relating to
Sun and to customers.
Relatively speaking, releasing the code as open source was easy as it's
an inanimate blob we could examine, then pick up and move outside the
firewall. And as one of the people involved in the Solaris source code
Due Diligence process, I can tell you it wasn't actually all that easy!
Moving the development process across the firewall is *way* harder, as
it involves a large number of internal systems - such as our support,
escalation and patch management systems for example. It also requires
that we make significant changes to our internal processes (i.e. we
"Open Source" the Sun employees, not just the source code), and that's
*hard*.
We've done the Open Source thing, we are now doing the Open Development
bit. Those of us on the Sun opensolaris.org team spent the whole of
last week discussing and planning what work we needed to do to enable
the community to contribute more easily and effectively, so we are only
too aware of the holes we have to fill.
I can't actually think of any other company who is even close to trying
to do what we are attempting. I think we should be given at least some
credit for even attempting what is a fairly monumental task. What we
need (and have received) is direction from the community on what things
are the most important, plus a large slice of patience as we work our
way through the issues.
Thanks,
--
Alan Burlison
--
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Posts:
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From:
GB
Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:14 PM
in response to: Josh Hurst
|
|
On 1/31/07, Josh Hurst < joshhurst at gmail dot com> wrote:
You could make it a community phenomenon quite like Linux if you would
allow people to participate without waiting months to see the
submitted patches integrated. It sucks when a five line patch for a
very dumb bug is queued and no one cares. It sucks when projects like
the ksh93 integration need a year, which is 12 months, 367 days or
just a painful long time to integrate. Do you really think this
encourages contributors? "Come and wait a year to see your code
rejected" is the current official slogan of
Opensolaris.org
Which kind of contributor treatment is that?
You know, I've been very impressed with the readiness that my own (sometimes pathetic) contributions have been welcomed. OK, some
have taken a while, but most of the blame for that has to come back to me - there's no doubt that I could be more proactive. I've certainly never had any negative response. -- -Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Robert Milkowski
rmilkowski@task.gda.pl
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Re[2]: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:18 PM
in response to: gman
|
|
Hello Glynn,
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 8:29:31 PM, you wrote:
GF> There may never be a community phenomenon quite like Linux in terms of numbers
GF> and the creation of a grass roots environment.
There's a community phenomenon but frankly I think people exaggerate
it. I mean when you put aside GNOME, KDE, ... and concentrate on what
Linux actually is - the kernel and surroundings then how many people
are actually working on it? How many of them are paid directly or
indirectly by RedHat, Suse and other companies?
Now, it would be great if other companies would actively participate
in Open Solaris, that's for sure.
There're also other companies and universities which are doing
something with Linux and at the end it pays off. I belive we should
attract them.
I do not belive many (if any) people are actually doing anything
important in Linux kernel in their free time - those times are over.
--
Best regards,
Robert mailto:rmilkowski at task dot gda dot pl
http://milek.blogspot.com
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3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:21 PM
in response to: Josh Hurst
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Josh Hurst wrote On 02/01/07 04:13,:
> On 1/31/07, Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at sun dot com> wrote:
>
>> I'm the first to agree that the transition to Mercurial, getting the
>> source outside Sun's firewall, is going slower than I want.
>
>
> How do you want to stimulate the growth of the Opensolaris community?
> That may be more important right now. Opensolaris.org remains a small
> fraction, if not the smallest, out of the Open Unix cake composed from
> NetBSD, FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, Darwin, Linux and Opensolaris and
> I don't see it GROWING.
Actually, site registrations are increasing and at an increasing rate,
too. We have 177 lists now, yet the number of mail continues to
increase, so I would suspect that new people are posting. Subscriptions
to the lists are increasing, too. Our conferences are pretty popular, as
well, and the biggest will be in India next month with perhaps 4,000
people attending Java and OpenSolaris sessions. request-sponsor will
always be a low traffic list since the entire process is manual and it
was designed to be small. We *are* growing. I'd like to grow faster, so
in that sense I agree that we can probably handle more. And I sense from
the Sun executives that they'd like to help OpenSolaris grow faster,
too. So, don't be surprised to see Sun out there more aggressively
promoting OpenSolaris in a variety of ways.
The notion that we may be smaller than some other community is
meaningless. I've been on this project for three years, and I can't
remember even one meeting when we considered community size an issue at
all.
Jim
> Just the same people all the time. The request
> sponsor list doesn't grow much either in terms of new contributors
> (just the part with the unsponsored items grows). Just the same people
> all the time.
>
> Josh
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Robert Milkowski
rmilkowski@task.gda.pl
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:14 AM
in response to: swalker
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Hello Shawn,
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:01:33 AM, you wrote:
SW> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest
SW> discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
Not that you get code integration in Linux world instantaneously
especially when you're a new and not well known member. Even people
from IBM have problems with integration into Linux kernel - see
kprobes.
I don't think we can afford to quickly integrate everything just to
encourage.
However more open attitude within projects already open would be
welcome. We, outside Sun, in 99% do not have an idea if someone is
working on some new functionality or not. We do not have an idea, much
less participate, in discussions about direction of a project, etc.
There're exceptions, sure. I also understand that even if many things
take action in open public there's still not much community involvement
- buy I belive it will come with time.
--
Best regards,
Robert mailto:rmilkowski at task dot gda dot pl
http://milek.blogspot.com
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 10:54 AM
in response to: Robert Milkowski
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> Hello Shawn,
>
> Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:01:33 AM, you wrote:
>
> SW> I think the barriers to contribution are
> currently the biggest
> SW> discouragement. Integration of even the smallest
> changes can take a very long time.
>
> Not that you get code integration in Linux world
> instantaneously
> especially when you're a new and not well known
> member. Even people
> from IBM have problems with integration into Linux
> kernel - see
> kprobes.
>
> I don't think we can afford to quickly integrate
> everything just to
> encourage.
That's not what people like me are asking for. We're just asking for the amount of time it takes to integrate to be reasonably proportional to the size and scope of the change. There have been putbacks that were purely cosmetic in nature that still took weeks to integrate, as an example, when they should have taken days at most.
> --
> Best regards,
> Robert
>
> ailto:rmilkowski at task dot gda dot pl
>
> ttp://milek.blogspot.com
-Shawn
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Posts:
3,793
From:
GB
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 3:14 AM
in response to: swalker
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Shawn Walker wrote:
> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
and how is this any different to getting fixes into "the one true" Linux
kernel tar ball ?
How many people actually have SCM commit access to that ?
Do people really expect to be granted SCM commit access on to do their
very first fix integration ?
--
Darren J Moffat
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 3:58 AM
in response to: darrenm
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>Shawn Walker wrote:
>> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of ev
en the smallest changes can take a very long time.
>
>
>and how is this any different to getting fixes into "the one true" Linux
> kernel tar ball ?
>
>How many people actually have SCM commit access to that ?
>
>Do people really expect to be granted SCM commit access on to do their
>very first fix integration ?
No, but there's a bit of a difference between "no way to get
commit access now" and the current situation.
But, in the proposed meritocracy, some putbacks would need to be
done with handholding before letting people go it alone.
Internally, we have a two stage commit cycle; and while this was
created for a practical reason (reading blocks writing), it also
serves as a last check.
Casper
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 7:48 AM
in response to: darrenm
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Darren J Moffat wrote:
> Shawn Walker wrote:
>> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest
>> discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a
>> very long time.
>
>
> and how is this any different to getting fixes into "the one true" Linux
> kernel tar ball ?
>
> How many people actually have SCM commit access to that ?
>
> Do people really expect to be granted SCM commit access on to do their
> very first fix integration ?
>
SCM access and the current workflow problems are almost entirely separate,
please don't commingle them, it just leads to people believing they're
actually the same problem.
-- Rich
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 10:56 AM
in response to: darrenm
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> Shawn Walker wrote:
> > I think the barriers to contribution are currently
> the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the
> smallest changes can take a very long time.
>
>
> and how is this any different to getting fixes into
> "the one true" Linux
> kernel tar ball ?
> ow many people actually have SCM commit access to
> that ?
>
> Do people really expect to be granted SCM commit
> access on to do their
> very first fix integration ?
>
>
> --
> Darren J Moffat
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
No, I don't think people expect SCM commit access. I do think they expect the time required to integrate to be reasonably proportional to the size and scope of the change. There have been putbacks that were purely cosmetic in nature that still took weeks to integrate, as an example. Large changes should take a long time, short changes a short time, and tiny changes a tiny amount of time. If we could reach that, that would go a long way towards sorting things out.
Hence my earlier comment about it being unfair to expect SUN employees alone to take responsibility for these items (in their spare time no less from what I've been told).
-Shawn
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Posts:
147
From:
Menlo Park, CA
Registered:
5/2/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:03 AM
in response to: swalker
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All of those things are being worked on now.
Shawn Walker wrote:
> I think the barriers to contribution are currently the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the smallest changes can take a very long time.
>
> Oh, and before I forget, the bug reporting system being out of sync with actual progress does not help at all.
>
> -Shawn
>
> Message was edited by:
> swalker
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
--
Stephen Harpster
Director, Open Source Software
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 10:51 AM
in response to: harpster
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> All of those things are being worked on now.
>
>
>
> Shawn Walker wrote:
> > I think the barriers to contribution are currently
> the biggest discouragement. Integration of even the
> smallest changes can take a very long time.
> >
> > Oh, and before I forget, the bug reporting system
> being out of sync with actual progress does not help
> at all.
> >
> > -Shawn
> >
> > Message was edited by:
> > swalker
> >
> >
> > This message posted from opensolaris.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> > opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
> >
>
> --
> Stephen Harpster
> Director, Open Source Software
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
Forgive my pessimism then. Those things have been in a state of "being worked on" since the project was opened to the public. Really, I'm only disenchanted by them because of the licensing discussion. I don't see the point of changing licenses when core problems still exist almost two years later. I know some of these things are closer to being done, but, aaarrgghhh.
-Shawn
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599
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 8:37 PM
in response to: ian
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I got one silly hypothesis, though its validity is greatly offset by my
employment and, very likely, my upbringing. One of the most strike
contrasts when moving from Russia to a capitalist society was the notion
of private property. Skipping the long thought process, it seems to me
that people care much more about something they own, than something they
borrow. I could care less about ceiling leaks in my rented apartment,
but look at those home owners, with their wallets out at the home depot
:) Or the way stock options affect stock holders.
The Linux community seems to have a more pronounced ownership feeling
about the code, the "if we don't do it, noone will" sort of thing.
Certain weight of responsibility. With OpenSolaris though,
Sun acts as a supreme being that takes responsibility for both screwups
and successes. Do the community contributors feel at home here? Do they
feel like they own anything there? Like their actions have direct impact
and their efforts really paying off?
-Artem.
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Posts:
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From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 8:45 PM
in response to: artem
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>
> I got one silly hypothesis, though its validity is greatly offset by my
> employment and, very likely, my upbringing. One of the most strike
> contrasts when moving from Russia to a capitalist society was the notion
> of private property. Skipping the long thought process, it seems to me
> that people care much more about something they own, than something they
> borrow. I could care less about ceiling leaks in my rented apartment,
> but look at those home owners, with their wallets out at the home depot
> :) Or the way stock options affect stock holders.
>
> The Linux community seems to have a more pronounced ownership feeling
> about the code, the "if we don't do it, noone will" sort of thing.
> Certain weight of responsibility. With OpenSolaris though,
> Sun acts as a supreme being that takes responsibility for both screwups
> and successes. Do the community contributors feel at home here? Do they
> feel like they own anything there? Like their actions have direct impact
> and their efforts really paying off?
>
> -Artem.
wow ... I just got a shiver
you nailed it down. really .. do I feel like a visitor in someone elses
big fancy office? Or am I in the cheap office with folding tables and
network cables all over the place.
I feel very much like a vistor .. coffee cup in hand .. sit over there
and ... wait. Try not to disturb the employees. That sort of thing.
--
Dennis Clarke
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From:
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 10:15 PM
in response to: artem
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Artem Kachitchkine wrote:
>
> I got one silly hypothesis, though its validity is greatly offset by
> my employment and, very likely, my upbringing. One of the most strike
> contrasts when moving from Russia to a capitalist society was the
> notion of private property. Skipping the long thought process, it
> seems to me that people care much more about something they own, than
> something they borrow. I could care less about ceiling leaks in my
> rented apartment, but look at those home owners, with their wallets
> out at the home depot :) Or the way stock options affect stock holders.
>
> The Linux community seems to have a more pronounced ownership feeling
> about the code, the "if we don't do it, noone will" sort of thing.
> Certain weight of responsibility. With OpenSolaris though,
> Sun acts as a supreme being that takes responsibility for both
> screwups and successes. Do the community contributors feel at home
> here? Do they feel like they own anything there? Like their actions
> have direct impact and their efforts really paying off?
>
I think we are more like the audience at a show, audience participation
is encouraged, but the show has a plot to follow.
Not only do Linux people have a more pronounced ownership feeling about
the code, but a widely dispersed number of them make their living from
the code, either through consulting, freelance development or
employment. The same applies to a number of other successful opensource
projects.
Ian
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:38 PM
in response to: artem
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On Tuesday 30 January 2007 08:37 pm, Artem Kachitchkine wrote:
> Do the community contributors feel at home here?
I don't think so. I see Sun's process as being very intimidating. While many
of the other open source communities are bold, they're somehow more
welcoming. I see OpenSolaris as being intimidating for the average community
member.
> Do they
> feel like they own anything there? Like their actions have direct impact
> and their efforts really paying off?
Probably depends on who you talk to and/or how they're involved with
Solaris/OpenSolaris.
It's been hard for the members to be involved with much of the processes.
bugster is not open, the ARC cases have only been available as of recent I
believe, and there is still no source code management.
Would you have the warm fuzzies in those conditions?
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company!
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 11:00 AM
in response to: aland
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 08:37 pm, Artem
> Kachitchkine wrote:
> > Do the community contributors feel at home here?
>
> I don't think so. I see Sun's process as being very
> intimidating. While many
> of the other open source communities are bold,
> they're somehow more
> welcoming. I see OpenSolaris as being intimidating
> for the average community
> member.
I'm sure one thing that intimidates some would be the contributor agreement. But, quite frankly, that's because most projects don't actually care about how legal they are. I suspect many projects could be ripped to shreds if proper IP ownership were actually enforced. So, while I think it intimidates people, I think it is absolutely necessary and needed to have one.
The testing process is also difficult at best at the moment since you need to test for x86 and SPARC, and let's face it, most folks have an x86 box, not a SPARC box.
> bugster is not open, the ARC cases have only been
> available as of recent I
> believe, and there is still no source code
> management.
>
> Would you have the warm fuzzies in those conditions?
>
> --
>
> Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
> Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care
> about our company!
I know the chances of Bugster ever being truly open are unlikely due to privacy concerns and legal considerations with SUN's Customer base (entirely valid I might add). Source code management, a streamlined integration process, and the final minimum necessary source pieces for someone to build their own distribution would be a huge boon in my view.
-Shawn
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Posts:
1,674
From:
Registered:
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 1:47 AM
in response to: swalker
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> The testing process is also difficult at best at the
> moment since you need to test for x86 and SPARC, and
> let's face it, most folks have an x86 box, not a
> SPARC box.
Used SPARC hardware is dirt cheap nowdays. I just got me 2 x SunFire V100 for $200 USD apiece, and they're both practically brand new (most of the stuff was unopened).
If that's still too much, may I suggest to contact Dennis Clarke of the Blastwave fame and see if he can set you up with a SPARC test environment on his compile farm?
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 9:55 PM
in response to: ux-admin
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> > The testing process is also difficult at best at
> the
> > moment since you need to test for x86 and SPARC,
> and
> > let's face it, most folks have an x86 box, not a
> > SPARC box.
>
> Used SPARC hardware is dirt cheap nowdays. I just got
> me 2 x SunFire V100 for $200 USD apiece, and they're
> both practically brand new (most of the stuff was
> unopened).
>
> If that's still too much, may I suggest to contact
> Dennis Clarke of the Blastwave fame and see if he can
> set you up with a SPARC test environment on his
> compile farm?
No, that's reasonably priced. Now the issue will be finding somewhere to put it. I may not have a datacenter for my system, but space is still an issue :P
I don't suppose you have specific SPARC systems that would be highly recommended if you can find them used? I know some of the older ones are not a great idea...
-Shawn
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 8, 2007 8:42 AM
in response to: swalker
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> No, that's reasonably priced. Now the issue will be
> finding somewhere to put it. I may not have a
> datacenter for my system, but space is still an issue
> :P
Indeed, in today's computing environment, two most precious resources are space and energy consumption. A close running third is noise pollution, regulated by law in some countries.
When you add these together, even in the context of a hobbyst home user/researcher/developer, the price of the computers is the smallest portion of the pie.
Apropos space, if you look around on ebay for example, you should be able to nab a nice, industry-grade 19" full size rack for about $300-$600 USD. Recommended placement location is the basement of course... if you have one.
20A circuit or circuits help too.
For about $12 USD you can get the necessary materials to do the electrical wiring for a 20A circuit.
And if you want to do everything right, a 5kW generator will run you about $1,000 USD. UPS -- your milage might vary, they can be expensive.
I know this is probably more than you intend, but I'm just throwing options out there based on my own experiences and costs. Maybe they will be of help to someone.
> I don't suppose you have specific SPARC systems that
> would be highly recommended if you can find them
> used? I know some of the older ones are not a great
> idea...
V100s or V120s will do. They have everything one might want: dual drives, ALOM, two NIC interfaces, and are rack mountable with relatively low power consumption and the right ebay price.
If you get lucky, you might be able to nab a V210 for about $450 USD on ebay, but you'll have to hunt.
V240s would be a dream, but those are usually sold by greedy resellers who still haven't woken up and think they will actually get $2,000 - $3,000 for those, which is just rediculous and incredibly naive.
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 10:02 PM
in response to: ian
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Ian Collins wrote:
> Dennis's post on the GPLv3 thread:
>
> "Let's fast forward two more years and if we have another mad rush of
> people NOT joining this project what then? Another marketting fix and we
> rename this to the Java Enterprise OpenSolaris project with Sun
> Community Source License ( SCSL ) license added and on and on we go
> trying to fix something."
>
> got me thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
> OpenSolaris.
Can you be more specific what you mean by "community participation" in
this context?
So far, I'm getting the impression from these two threads today that
what people mean is primarily code contributions and/or anything
specific to working with the code. Which is fine, of course, but I think
that represents just one way someone can contribute, and it also
represents the smallest number of people in the community (since they
are the most advanced). By the way, I feel that at this early stage we
are not nearly diversified enough to really engage non-technical people,
but I'd love for that to be the goal.
There have been a few conversations about community participation, and
aside from the obvious technical issues that Shawn, Dennis, and others
have (thankfully) pointed out, I'm wondering if we ought to expand the
conversation to be more inclusive of non-code activities. Please gag me
for saying this, but do we need some sort of program to help this issue
along?
> Like Dennis, I've been here since the pilot, but unlike Dennis, my
> contribution has been negligible. My excuse is simply time, I have a
> hungry bank manager and kids to feed, so I don't have a lot of spare
> time for what amounts to 'hobby' coding. I'm sure there are many others
> out here in a similar position.
Indeed there are. But all contributions should be honored.
> Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
> work on the kernel, drivers and applications.
Did they have that 20 months into the project? I have no clue; I'm
asking out of genuine ignorance.
> On one had this shows the
> quality of the engineering team at Sun, but on the other it puts us at a
> disadvantage. I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
> will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
> project.
Having substantial corporate support for various development efforts
would be interesting for sure (though I have no idea what that would
look like in our case). Linux didn't grow from a company like we are.
But your point is a good one and something to look forward to as we
expand and non-Sun community members take leadership roles.
> I'd like nothing better than to combine my two decades of
> SunOs/Solaris and driver experience and make a real contribution to the
> project, but I simply can't afford to.
I think you bring up a really good point. Sun pays me to do what I do,
and so from that perspective I'm lucky. We Sun people have to deal with
the corporate politics, though, so in that sense we are unlucky. :)
> The big question is how can we make this happen? Is there a demand from
> corporate users willing to pay for drivers and functionality? If there
> is, can Sun (who I assume know who wants what) through OpenSolaris
> connect them with developers in the community able to do the work?
Jim
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 10:42 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
> Ian Collins wrote:
>
>> Dennis's post on the GPLv3 thread:
>>
>> "Let's fast forward two more years and if we have another mad rush of
>> people NOT joining this project what then? Another marketting fix and we
>> rename this to the Java Enterprise OpenSolaris project with Sun
>> Community Source License ( SCSL ) license added and on and on we go
>> trying to fix something."
>>
>> got me thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
>> OpenSolaris.
>
>
> Can you be more specific what you mean by "community participation" in
> this context?
More of us getting stuck into the gaps that hinder the spread of
OpenSolaris, working either as independent OpenSolaris developers or as
an integral part of a Sun project team. I'd like to think that one day
I can make a living as an OpenSolaris developer.
>
> So far, I'm getting the impression from these two threads today that
> what people mean is primarily code contributions and/or anything
> specific to working with the code. Which is fine, of course, but I
> think that represents just one way someone can contribute, and it also
> represents the smallest number of people in the community (since they
> are the most advanced). By the way, I feel that at this early stage we
> are not nearly diversified enough to really engage non-technical
> people, but I'd love for that to be the goal.
>
> There have been a few conversations about community participation, and
> aside from the obvious technical issues that Shawn, Dennis, and others
> have (thankfully) pointed out, I'm wondering if we ought to expand the
> conversation to be more inclusive of non-code activities. Please gag
> me for saying this, but do we need some sort of program to help this
> issue along?
>
There was a brief discussion about that on this list a while back
(December 18th.), but it didn't go anywhere. We probably need to
identify the non-code activities (excluding financial!) that could help
the project along. My only experience of opensource projects is as a
developer, anyone else here made any non-code contributions to an
opensource project?
>
>> Like Dennis, I've been here since the pilot, but unlike Dennis, my
>> contribution has been negligible. My excuse is simply time, I have a
>> hungry bank manager and kids to feed, so I don't have a lot of spare
>> time for what amounts to 'hobby' coding. I'm sure there are many others
>> out here in a similar position.
>
>
> Indeed there are. But all contributions should be honored.
I wasn't referring to the small contribution, but to the desire and
ability to do more.
>
>> Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
>> work on the kernel, drivers and applications.
>
>
> Did they have that 20 months into the project? I have no clue; I'm
> asking out of genuine ignorance.
I don't know either, when did the likes of Red Hat enter the Linux
arena? I think gcc has had corporate users contributing for a long time.
>
>> On one had this shows the
>> quality of the engineering team at Sun, but on the other it puts us at a
>> disadvantage. I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
>> will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
>> project.
>
>
> Having substantial corporate support for various development efforts
> would be interesting for sure (though I have no idea what that would
> look like in our case). Linux didn't grow from a company like we are.
> But your point is a good one and something to look forward to as we
> expand and non-Sun community members take leadership roles.
>
>
The only time I was paid to work on a Linux project was for a driver.
It's the peripheral (in both senses of the word) development that brings
people in. An audio company had designed their own sound card and chose
to run Linux in their audio server because it was free and they could
get a driver written. OpenSolaris could fill that niche today, if we
had a way of connecting potential users with the development community.
>> I'd like nothing better than to combine my two decades of
>> SunOs/Solaris and driver experience and make a real contribution to the
>> project, but I simply can't afford to.
>
>
> I think you bring up a really good point. Sun pays me to do what I do,
> and so from that perspective I'm lucky. We Sun people have to deal
> with the corporate politics, though, so in that sense we are unlucky. :)
>
I've learned to live with the necessity of company politics, but
independent developers can just get on with the code and let the
politics flow by!
Ian
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:23 PM
in response to: ian
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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Would it be possible to develop some kind of scoring of outside contributors
(LOC broken down by kernel/driver/libs/apps and new vs bugfixes, say)?
That might generate some friendly competition. Further, if that were done
in the right way, it could be joined (perhaps by some non-Sun site and with
a disclaimer) to something the contributors could set if they were willing to
be contacted for independent contract work. That way, if some 3rd party
wanted to pay for community support (say to add a new driver), they'd have
some measure of who had participated in an applicable sort of way.
I'm sure the lawyers would have a field day with this. Still, all that's really
involved is the scoring (the formula for which should be open), the disclaimer
(including one as to the accuracy of the scoring as well as "does not endorse..."), and the connection to the actual indication who wanted to
be available for such work. There ought to be some way to divide that
up that makes everyone happy.
More broadly, a separate site that was a place where independent
OpenSolaris contributors and potential employers could match up their
availability/abilities and needs might do something to bring in some outside
support. One might hope most of it would be open, but if someone was
willing, I don't see that having someone develop eg a video or WiFi driver
under NDA would be a big deal as long as the binaries could be freely
distributed.
Those things might do much to provide a mechanism for getting a lot more
done, especially in terms of drivers, support for commercial apps being
ported to Solaris, etc.
just a thought...
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:19 AM
in response to: ian
|
|
Ian Collins wrote On 01/31/07 15:42,:
> Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
>
>>Ian Collins wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Dennis's post on the GPLv3 thread:
>>>
>>>"Let's fast forward two more years and if we have another mad rush of
>>>people NOT joining this project what then? Another marketting fix and we
>>>rename this to the Java Enterprise OpenSolaris project with Sun
>>>Community Source License ( SCSL ) license added and on and on we go
>>>trying to fix something."
>>>
>>>got me thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
>>>OpenSolaris.
>>
>>
>>Can you be more specific what you mean by "community participation" in
>>this context?
>
>
> More of us getting stuck into the gaps that hinder the spread of
> OpenSolaris, working either as independent OpenSolaris developers or as
> an integral part of a Sun project team. I'd like to think that one day
> I can make a living as an OpenSolaris developer.
>
>
>>So far, I'm getting the impression from these two threads today that
>>what people mean is primarily code contributions and/or anything
>>specific to working with the code. Which is fine, of course, but I
>>think that represents just one way someone can contribute, and it also
>>represents the smallest number of people in the community (since they
>>are the most advanced). By the way, I feel that at this early stage we
>>are not nearly diversified enough to really engage non-technical
>>people, but I'd love for that to be the goal.
>>
>>There have been a few conversations about community participation, and
>>aside from the obvious technical issues that Shawn, Dennis, and others
>>have (thankfully) pointed out, I'm wondering if we ought to expand the
>>conversation to be more inclusive of non-code activities. Please gag
>>me for saying this, but do we need some sort of program to help this
>>issue along?
>>
>
> There was a brief discussion about that on this list a while back
> (December 18th.), but it didn't go anywhere.
Oh, there have been several. Most only last a day or two with no real
consensus reached.
> We probably need to
> identify the non-code activities (excluding financial!) that could help
> the project along. My only experience of opensource projects is as a
> developer, anyone else here made any non-code contributions to an
> opensource project?
some non-technical stuff ....
* writing docs (well, that one is pretty technical, sorry)
* writing articles/news
* evangelism (hate the term but it's obvious what it means)
* translating content to other languages
* starting and running user groups
* presenting at conferences
* teaching at universities (a bit technical, too)
* writing books (ok, technical)
* serving on governing boards
* answering questions on list
* participating on list and IRC
* writing FAQs
* blogging
* taking pictures, creating artwork, etc
We've been getting many such contributions and participation, but I'm
not sure there's been any real consensus to call attention to this stuff.
Jim
>>>Like Dennis, I've been here since the pilot, but unlike Dennis, my
>>>contribution has been negligible. My excuse is simply time, I have a
>>>hungry bank manager and kids to feed, so I don't have a lot of spare
>>>time for what amounts to 'hobby' coding. I'm sure there are many others
>>>out here in a similar position.
>>
>>
>>Indeed there are. But all contributions should be honored.
>
>
> I wasn't referring to the small contribution, but to the desire and
> ability to do more.
>
>
>>>Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
>>>work on the kernel, drivers and applications.
>>
>>
>>Did they have that 20 months into the project? I have no clue; I'm
>>asking out of genuine ignorance.
>
>
>
> I don't know either, when did the likes of Red Hat enter the Linux
> arena? I think gcc has had corporate users contributing for a long time.
>
>
>>>On one had this shows the
>>>quality of the engineering team at Sun, but on the other it puts us at a
>>>disadvantage. I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
>>>will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
>>>project.
>>
>>
>>Having substantial corporate support for various development efforts
>>would be interesting for sure (though I have no idea what that would
>>look like in our case). Linux didn't grow from a company like we are.
>>But your point is a good one and something to look forward to as we
>>expand and non-Sun community members take leadership roles.
>>
>>
>
> The only time I was paid to work on a Linux project was for a driver.
> It's the peripheral (in both senses of the word) development that brings
> people in. An audio company had designed their own sound card and chose
> to run Linux in their audio server because it was free and they could
> get a driver written. OpenSolaris could fill that niche today, if we
> had a way of connecting potential users with the development community.
>
>
>>>I'd like nothing better than to combine my two decades of
>>>SunOs/Solaris and driver experience and make a real contribution to the
>>>project, but I simply can't afford to.
>>
>>
>>I think you bring up a really good point. Sun pays me to do what I do,
>>and so from that perspective I'm lucky. We Sun people have to deal
>>with the corporate politics, though, so in that sense we are unlucky. :)
>>
>
> I've learned to live with the necessity of company politics, but
> independent developers can just get on with the code and let the
> politics flow by!
>
> Ian
>
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 8, 2007 9:01 AM
in response to: ian
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
|
|
> More of us getting stuck into the gaps that hinder
> the spread of
> OpenSolaris, working either as independent
> OpenSolaris developers or as
> an integral part of a Sun project team. I'd like to
> think that one day
> I can make a living as an OpenSolaris developer.
...or a(n) (Open)Solaris consultant and system integrator (in my case).
It's a tough life for us folks outside of Sun. Sun / Solaris market penetration / awareness is extremely low in Europe. I know things are better in the U.S., but here it's simply dismal.
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Posts:
1,109
From:
Registered:
6/14/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:26 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
On Tuesday 30 January 2007 06:44 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
> Like Dennis, I've been here since the pilot, but unlike Dennis, my
> contribution has been negligible.
I would argue that you've been around and a part of the Solaris x86 community
for quite some time. It's really not about anyone doing more, or less, it's
about everyone doing whatever they can. There's a lot of people that have
been around various communities hanging off the wire, and things continue to
get better than where they were, IMO.
> Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
> work on the kernel, drivers and applications.
But Sun has a tremendous amount of engineers working on Solaris, more than any
other single company, IMO.
> I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
> will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
> project.
I don't believe that. And Sun is paying for a lot of engineers to work on it.
> The big question is how can we make this happen? Is there a demand from
> corporate users willing to pay for drivers and functionality? If there
> is, can Sun (who I assume know who wants what) through OpenSolaris
> connect them with developers in the community able to do the work?
One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware. Anyone
interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company!
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NZ
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:42 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
Alan DuBoff wrote:
>>Unlike OpenSolaris, the Linux world has a many corporations paying for
>>work on the kernel, drivers and applications.
>>
>
>But Sun has a tremendous amount of engineers working on Solaris, more than any
>other single company, IMO.
>
I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in many ways is
a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at Sun. My
point is not so much that more than one company contributes to core Linux,
but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code, whether it be
embedded or PC based.
>
>>I don't think the community involvement in OpenSolaris
>>will grow until we have more companies willing to pay for work on the
>>project.
>
>
>I don't believe that. And Sun is paying for a lot of engineers to work on it.
>
Again, I think its all of the peripheral work that makes the difference.
>>The big question is how can we make this happen? Is there a demand from
>>corporate users willing to pay for drivers and functionality? If there
>>is, can Sun (who I assume know who wants what) through OpenSolaris
>>connect them with developers in the community able to do the work?
>
>
>One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware. Anyone
>interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>
I would.
Ian.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 30, 2007 11:58 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
On Tuesday 30 January 2007 11:42 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
> I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in many ways is
> a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at Sun. My
> point is not so much that more than one company contributes to core Linux,
> but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code, whether it be
> embedded or PC based.
This is no different than Sun paying staff that works on OpenSolaris, and Sun
has open sourced more code than any other single company.
> >One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware.
> > Anyone interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>
> I would.
Let me see what I can find out, I've talked to them a couple times. It might
be possible to get some hardware and help with specs as well. Do you have a
particular chipset of theirs that interest you?
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company!
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Raquel Velasco ...
bbrv@genesi.lu
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:06 AM
in response to: aland
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|
You might want to get a English translation of the article on page 94
of January's issue of this German magazine:
http://www.linux-magazin.de/Artikel/ausgabe/2007/02
This will explain in part what is going wrong with Linux. Sun and
the Community would be wise to understand the points made therein.
There is another thing. IBM is hiring as many of the key
contributors it can.
R&B
On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:58 AM, Alan DuBoff wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 11:42 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
>> I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in
>> many ways is
>> a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at
>> Sun. My
>> point is not so much that more than one company contributes to
>> core Linux,
>> but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code,
>> whether it be
>> embedded or PC based.
>
> This is no different than Sun paying staff that works on
> OpenSolaris, and Sun
> has open sourced more code than any other single company.
>
>>> One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware.
>>> Anyone interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>>
>> I would.
>
> Let me see what I can find out, I've talked to them a couple times.
> It might
> be possible to get some hardware and help with specs as well. Do
> you have a
> particular chipset of theirs that interest you?
>
> --
>
> Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
> Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our
> company!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Posts:
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From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:11 AM
in response to: Raquel Velasco ...
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Raquel Velasco and Bill Buck wrote On 01/31/07 17:06,:
> You might want to get a English translation of the article on page 94
> of January's issue of this German magazine:
>
> http://www.linux-magazin.de/Artikel/ausgabe/2007/02
>
> This will explain in part what is going wrong with Linux. Sun and the
> Community would be wise to understand the points made therein.
>
> There is another thing. IBM is hiring as many of the key contributors
> it can.
>
hey, thanks. I'll look for the English piece. I'm a little up to my ears
learning Japanese at the moment to take on German as well. :) I hadn't
heard the IBM bit, but I don't really follow the Linux community closely.
Jim
> R&B
>
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:58 AM, Alan DuBoff wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 11:42 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
>>
>>> I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in many
>>> ways is
>>> a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at
>>> Sun. My
>>> point is not so much that more than one company contributes to core
>>> Linux,
>>> but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code, whether
>>> it be
>>> embedded or PC based.
>>
>>
>> This is no different than Sun paying staff that works on OpenSolaris,
>> and Sun
>> has open sourced more code than any other single company.
>>
>>>> One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware.
>>>> Anyone interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>>>
>>>
>>> I would.
>>
>>
>> Let me see what I can find out, I've talked to them a couple times.
>> It might
>> be possible to get some hardware and help with specs as well. Do you
>> have a
>> particular chipset of theirs that interest you?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
>> Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
>> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:21 AM
in response to: aland
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|
Alan DuBoff wrote:
>On Tuesday 30 January 2007 11:42 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
>
>
>>I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in many ways is
>>a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at Sun. My
>>point is not so much that more than one company contributes to core Linux,
>>but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code, whether it be
>>embedded or PC based.
>>
>>
>
>This is no different than Sun paying staff that works on OpenSolaris, and Sun
>has open sourced more code than any other single company.
>
>
>
Maybe, but it's the perception - all it would take would be for one
reasonably well known company to pick up on OpenSolaris to embed in
their product and the perception of OpenSolaris would shift away form it
being Sun only. At the moment, the almost automatic choice would be Linux.
>>>One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware.
>>>Anyone interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>>>
>>>
>>I would.
>>
>>
>
>Let me see what I can find out, I've talked to them a couple times. It might
>be possible to get some hardware and help with specs as well. Do you have a
>particular chipset of theirs that interest you?
>
>
>
To be honest, I haven't been through their stuff in too much detail
because I haven't seen chip specs and they don't support Solaris! It's
probably more of a case of which part is in demand.
Cheers,
Ian
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:50 AM
in response to: ian
|
|
On Wednesday 31 January 2007 12:21 am, Ian Collins wrote:
> Maybe, but it's the perception - all it would take would be for one
> reasonably well known company to pick up on OpenSolaris to embed in
> their product and the perception of OpenSolaris would shift away form it
> being Sun only. At the moment, the almost automatic choice would be Linux.
Well, that is happening already. Intel announced their support for
Solaris/OpenSolaris, and Intel is interested in open sourcing their drivers,
and want to play well with Sun, as does Sun with Intel.
IBM is also embracing it on their blade centers, and are a reseller of
Solaris.
So there are things happening in this regard.
> To be honest, I haven't been through their stuff in too much detail
> because I haven't seen chip specs and they don't support Solaris! It's
> probably more of a case of which part is in demand.
I'll see what I can find out.
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of insourcing at Sun - hire people that care about our company!
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 1:38 AM
in response to: aland
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
|
|
> IBM is also embracing it on their blade centers, and
> are a reseller of
> Solaris.
Maybe so -- I can't comment on that, but I can say that IBM is badmouthing Solaris every chance they get. They even have a magazine that features IBM solutions on Linux, and lots of articles are specifically focused on migrating away from Solaris to Linux, be it i86pc or Linux on z/OS and mainframe. Actually, IBM's marketing forge is in full swing, churning out anti-Solaris propaganda. By the kilogram.
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 12:44 AM
in response to: aland
|
|
[resent because I didn't see it on the list]
Alan DuBoff wrote:
>>On Tuesday 30 January 2007 11:42 pm, Ian Collins wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>>>>I don't dispute that, the fact the Solaris can better Linux in many ways is
>>>>a strong indicator as to the quality and number of developers at Sun. My
>>>>point is not so much that more than one company contributes to core Linux,
>>>>but many companies pay staff to work on Linux derived code, whether it be
>>>>embedded or PC based.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>This is no different than Sun paying staff that works on OpenSolaris, and Sun
>>has open sourced more code than any other single company.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Maybe, but it's the perception - all it would take would be for one
reasonably well known company to pick up on OpenSolaris to embed in
their product and the perception of OpenSolaris would shift away form it
being Sun only. At the moment, the almost automatic choice would be Linux.
>>>>>>One of the more likely candidates for such a project might be 3Ware.
>>>>>>Anyone interested in working on 3Ware drivers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Let me see what I can find out, I've talked to them a couple times. It might
>>be possible to get some hardware and help with specs as well. Do you have a
>>particular chipset of theirs that interest you?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
To be honest, I haven't been through their stuff in too much detail
because I haven't seen chip specs and they don't support Solaris! It's
probably more of a case of which part is in demand.
Cheers,
Ian
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Posts:
1,575
From:
GB
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 1:28 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
On 1/31/07, Ian Collins <ian at ianshome dot com> wrote:
thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
OpenSolaris.
This has worried me too. Remember, though, that all the Sun people count as community too and I'm sure they are contributing too.
I don't see committing code as the only success metric in determining participation, either. What I think we do need is some way to focus (external) community members, so they get an opportunity to contribute. I don't know how
to do this, but I'm sure that expecting people to start off by contributing code (by any process) straight away isn't always going to be appropriate. I'm sure there are a lot of people lurking on the lists, watching the forums,
and ocasionally sticking their head above the parapet. Is there any way we can construct a framework so that they can start to do useful work and begin to get involved, which might then lead to independent
involvement at a deeper level? Is there any mileage in things like bug days, or focussed campaigns on particular topics? -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/
- http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Posts:
1,901
From:
NZ
Registered:
6/16/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 2:13 PM
in response to: ptribble
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Hey,
Peter Tribble wrote:
> Is there any mileage in things like bug days, or focussed campaigns
> on particular topics?
All these things would be absolutely awesome - just takes one person to stand up
and volunteer to take it on.
FWIW, as a Sun employee, 90% of my OpenSolaris work at the moment is actually
based outside of the desktop and JDS. I'm obviously in the fortunate position of
being paid by Sun, but my current fascination *isn't* the desktop, but more of
an understanding of the OpenSolaris governance model, the difficulties in
creating a community, the processes involved in kernel development, and
morbidly, kernel code. Go figure. It's exciting, I want to be involved as a
community member, not Sun, and I believe most of my actions are indicative of that.
Find what your niche and contribute in whatever way you can. I'd encourage
everyone to do so.
Glynn
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:37 PM
in response to: ptribble
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Peter Tribble wrote On 02/01/07 06:28,:
> On 1/31/07, *Ian Collins* <ian at ianshome dot com <mailto:ian at ianshome dot com>>
> wrote:
>
>
> thinking about why we don't have more community participation on
> OpenSolaris.
>
>
> This has worried me too. Remember, though, that all the Sun people
> count as community too and I'm sure they are contributing too.
>
> I don't see committing code as the only success metric in determining
> participation, either.
>
> What I think we do need is some way to focus (external) community
> members, so they get an opportunity to contribute. I don't know how
> to do this, but I'm sure that expecting people to start off by contributing
> code (by any process) straight away isn't always going to be
> appropriate.
>
> I'm sure there are a lot of people lurking on the lists, watching the
> forums,
> and ocasionally sticking their head above the parapet. Is there any way
> we can construct a framework so that they can start to do useful work
> and begin to get involved, which might then lead to independent
> involvement at a deeper level?
>
> Is there any mileage in things like bug days, or focussed campaigns
> on particular topics?
Some have been considering a "bug bounty" program, so yes, I think we
ought to consider specific programs to engage more people in more ways
and then call attention to their contributions.
Jim
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Posts:
528
From:
CA
Registered:
12/22/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Jan 31, 2007 9:50 PM
in response to: jimgris
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On 31-Jan-07, at 9:37 PM, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
> Some have been considering a "bug bounty" program, so yes, I think
> we ought to consider specific programs to engage more people in
> more ways and then call attention to their contributions.
Fantastic!
:) I honestly think that'd be a great idea. Either I imagined it
(which is a possibility) or OpenBSD has hack-a-thons where everyone
meets at $PLACE and programs nonstop all weekend... also a cool idea..
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Posts:
1,674
From:
Registered:
7/15/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 1:32 AM
in response to: error404
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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>
> On 31-Jan-07, at 9:37 PM, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
> >
> > Some have been considering a "bug bounty" program,
> so yes, I think
> > we ought to consider specific programs to engage
> more people in
> > more ways and then call attention to their
> contributions.
>
> Fantastic!
> :) I honestly think that'd be a great idea. Either I
> imagined it
> (which is a possibility) or OpenBSD has hack-a-thons
> where everyone
> meets at $PLACE and programs nonstop all weekend...
> also a cool idea..
"Come to the biggest event since J****s took a walk on the lake - IKARI + ZARGON copyparty '89 in Denmark" - your idea reminds me of the old C-64 copyparties...
+1 in any case, and hopefully we can organize a "hackathon" in Europe too, one of these days...
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Posts:
917
From:
Registered:
4/28/05
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Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 11:48 AM
in response to: jimgris
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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While that would be handy, we already have a good program in place, its just buried. I refer to "Bite Sized Bugs".
I've pointed to this problem before: how do you find them? Bugs are (were) flagged in the database but finding a list of these is difficult or impossible. I've suggested in the past that on the 'bugs.opensolaris.org' page there be an small paragraph and link that can bring up all marked bite sized bugs.
The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks tasty and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for people to get started this way.
benr.
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Posts:
1,710
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 12:01 PM
in response to: benr
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Ben Rockwood wrote:
>While that would be handy, we already have a good program in place, its just buried. I refer to "Bite Sized Bugs".
>
>I've pointed to this problem before: how do you find them? Bugs are (were) flagged in the database but finding a list of these is difficult or impossible. I've suggested in the past that on the 'bugs.opensolaris.org' page there be an small paragraph and link that can bring up all marked bite sized bugs.
>
>The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks tasty and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for people to get started this way.
>
>
>
There probably should be some way of flagging your interest, to avoid
too many people looking at the same bug. Some sort of writer lock with
a sensible timeout.
Ian
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Posts:
1,091
From:
CA
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 12:02 PM
in response to: benr
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On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Ben Rockwood wrote:
> The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon
> and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks tasty
> and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for people
> to get started this way.
FWIW, I think that's a great idea. Let's make the barrier to entry as
low as possible (without compromising Solaris' quality). We have (most
of) the tools, we have sponsors, and we have willing peeps. Let's make
it as easy as possible to find the low hanging fruit!
--
Rich Teer, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, OpenSolaris CAB member
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich
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Posts:
1,575
From:
GB
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 12:23 PM
in response to: benr
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On 2/1/07, Ben Rockwood < benr at cuddletech dot com> wrote:
While that would be handy, we already have a good program in place, its just buried. I refer to "Bite Sized Bugs". ...
The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks tasty and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for people to get started this way.
Actually, I think the oss-bite-sized stuff isn't helping. I really don't think that a complete newcomer to the community is going to be excited by a bunch of random bugs that ought to have been fixed years ago. And we haven't got
hundreds of contributors who started out that way. Any thought that this process (maybe just in its current form) is a good one is just going to stop us developing a good system. I think we need to advertise what projects or communities need help at any
point in time, and for each community or project to identify key issues where extra hands would make a difference. At the moment it's very difficult even for those of us who've been involved with the project for a while to find this
out, let alone someone coming in afresh. People coming in are presumably doing so for a reason, and may have particular skills and interests. How do we make it easy for them to find the right place to contribute?
We need a bit of structure for newcomers to fit themselves into. They'll branch out and won't need the framework once they've got comfortable. -- -Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Posts:
293
From:
US
Registered:
4/26/05
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 8, 2007 11:52 AM
in response to: benr
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Just FYI, there is a list of the bite-sized bugs:
http://opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports/oss_bite_size
I have added link to this page to http://opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports
and we'll get a link on http://bugs.opensolaris.org as soon as we can.
Bonnie
Ben Rockwood wrote:
> While that would be handy, we already have a good program in place, its just buried. I refer to "Bite Sized Bugs".
>
> I've pointed to this problem before: how do you find them? Bugs are (were) flagged in the database but finding a list of these is difficult or impossible. I've suggested in the past that on the 'bugs.opensolaris.org' page there be an small paragraph and link that can bring up all marked bite sized bugs.
>
> The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks tasty and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for people to get started this way.
>
> benr.
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Posts:
917
From:
Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation
Posted:
Feb 8, 2007 2:21 PM
in response to: bjc
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Thank you Bonnie. :)
benr.
Bonnie Corwin wrote:
> Just FYI, there is a list of the bite-sized bugs:
>
> http://opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports/oss_bite_size
>
> I have added link to this page to
> http://opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports and we'll get a link on
> http://bugs.opensolaris.org as soon as we can.
>
> Bonnie
>
> Ben Rockwood wrote:
>> While that would be handy, we already have a good program in place,
>> its just buried. I refer to "Bite Sized Bugs".
>> I've pointed to this problem before: how do you find them? Bugs are
>> (were) flagged in the database but finding a list of these is
>> difficult or impossible. I've suggested in the past that on the
>> 'bugs.opensolaris.org' page there be an small paragraph and link that
>> can bring up all marked bite sized bugs.
>>
>> The idea here is that if someone sits down on a Saturday afternoon
>> and wants a challenge they pull up the list, pull one that looks
>> tasty and start working on a solution. Its got to be super easy for
>> people to get started this way.
>>
>> benr.
>>
>>
>> This message posted from opensolaris.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
>> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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