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Last Post:
Feb 19, 2007 1:24 PM
by: laca
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Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 1:05 PM
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[No Body]
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Posts:
1,710
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 1:05 PM
in response to: Guest
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James C. McPherson wrote:
> Erast Benson wrote:
>
>> unfortunately, I do not see up-and-to-the-right type of numbers,
>> but at least numbers are steady, this gives me more hopes that it is not
>> to late to fix that if at all possible/needed.
>
>
> Hi Erast,
> I *really* do not understand why you appear to be so concerned
> about how large or extensive the OpenSolaris community actually
> is.
>
> Yes, the number of those who would call themselves part of the
> OpenSolaris community is probably not as large as Linux-adherents,
> but who really cares? Why does it matter?
>
> Having numbers just for sake of a "mine is larger than yours"
> style competition is a distraction from the real effort of
> making OpenSolaris better.
>
A big +1 to that, quality matters, not quantity.
Users are a different matter, we want lots of those. Are there any
published download stats for OpenSolaris distributions?
Ian
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Posts:
94
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Registered:
8/24/05
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 2:22 PM
in response to: ian
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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[b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank you.[/b]
> James C. McPherson wrote:
> > Hi Erast,
> > I *really* do not understand why you appear to be
> so concerned
> > about how large or extensive the OpenSolaris
> community actually
> > is.
> >
> > Yes, the number of those who would call themselves
> part of the
> > OpenSolaris community is probably not as large as
> Linux-adherents,
> > but who really cares? Why does it matter?
Well duh..! As a community project one of the measures of success is definitely community participation and how big it is.
If you need reasons - better x86{_64} support, lots of drivers (as a testament - I have till now failed to install Solaris on any of my 8 x86/64 machines - Linux runs just fine there and recognizes most hardware thrown at it), quicker resolution of people's problems and addition of new features/improvements (suspend/resume anyone?), new architecture support - lots of reasons why OpenSolaris needs larger community. No? You think what was not possible in last year without community participation will be possible going forward without community? Do you think Sun engineers are going to spend their time fixing Joe Random's problems?
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James C. McPher...
James.McPherson@Sun....
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 2:36 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
> [b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank
> you.[/b]
>
>> James C. McPherson wrote:
>
>>> Hi Erast, I *really* do not understand why you appear to be
>> so concerned
>>> about how large or extensive the OpenSolaris
>> community actually
>>> is.
>>>
>>> Yes, the number of those who would call themselves
>> part of the
>>> OpenSolaris community is probably not as large as
>> Linux-adherents,
>>> but who really cares? Why does it matter?
>
> Well duh..! As a community project one of the measures of success is
> definitely community participation and how big it is.
Certainly community participation is essential. Where I disagree
with you is on "big" -- quality quality quality over volume.
Forgive the expression, but we do *not* need a pissing contest of
"my community is bigger than yours therefore mine is better".
> If you need reasons - better x86{_64} support, lots of drivers (as a
> testament - I have till now failed to install Solaris on any of my 8
> x86/64 machines - Linux runs just fine there and recognizes most hardware
> thrown at it), quicker resolution of people's problems and addition of
> new features/improvements (suspend/resume anyone?), new architecture
> support - lots of reasons why OpenSolaris needs larger community. No? You
> think what was not possible in last year without community participation
> will be possible going forward without community? Do you think Sun
> engineers are going to spend their time fixing Joe Random's problems?
You don't actually prove a point here. In a related thread
somebody argued that it was better to have "code that kinda
works" first, followed by "code that mostly works, on most
architectures" followed by "code that just works(tm)".
I believe that proposal got a big thwap in response, and
rightly so.
The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the community
cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I include
both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
I seriously doubt that if you researched the involvement of
Sun engineers in the OpenSolaris community -- and in the
general Solaris from well before OpenSolaris was even a twinkle
in some exec's eyes -- then you would not make that final,
throwaway and uninformed remark.
James C. McPherson
--
Solaris kernel software engineer
Sun Microsystems
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 6:45 PM
in response to: James C. McPher...
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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>The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the community
>cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I include
>both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
That is your view, sir. You completely, totally disregard the "community" here. You are not the community. Community is a distinct, independent entity with their own needs, wants and definitions of right and wrong. They are not here to work toward "your" goal of "quality code" and "resolved issues". To work towards creating conducive atmosphere for the community to thrive is absolutely the first aim of any open project that wants to be successful.
Your comment is a very good example of not understanding the basics of open source projects. This is what most people imply when they say {When it comes to open source} "Sun just doesn't get it".
Message was edited by:
sdestika
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Posts:
1,710
From:
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Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 6:51 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
>>The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the community
>>cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I include
>>both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
>>
>>
>
>That is your view, sir. You completely, totally disregard the "community" here. You are not the community. Community is a distinct, independent entity with their own needs, wants and definitions of right and wrong. They are not here to work toward "your" goal of "quality code" and "resolved issues". To work towards creating conducive atmosphere for the community to thrive is absolutely the first aim of any open project that wants to be successful.
>
>Your comment is a very good example of not understanding the basics of open source projects.
>
>
>
So you would rather have a hundred hackers rather than a few dedicated
developers?
Most open source projects are based around a small code of
contributors. Open Solaris probably has more than most, they just
happen to work for Sun.
Ian
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Posts:
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From:
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 9:49 PM
in response to: sdestika
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.. and the first step in creating a conducive atmosphere for the
community is having an email address that freaking works.
snarkily yours,
steve
On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 06:45:57PM -0800, S Destika wrote:
> >The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the community
> >cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I include
> >both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
>
> That is your view, sir. You completely, totally disregard the "community" here. You are not the community. Community is a distinct, independent entity with their own needs, wants and definitions of right and wrong. They are not here to work toward "your" goal of "quality code" and "resolved issues". To work towards creating conducive atmosphere for the community to thrive is absolutely the first aim of any open project that wants to be successful.
>
> Your comment is a very good example of not understanding the basics of open source projects.
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 7:59 AM
in response to: stevel
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Stephen Lau wrote:
> .. and the first step in creating a conducive atmosphere for the
> community is having an email address that freaking works.
Why even have the much-hated Jive forums if you're going to disown
people who use them instead of the mailing lists?
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3
ravings)
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 1:10 AM
in response to: sdestika
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>>The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the community
>>cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I include
>>both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
>
>That is your view, sir. You completely, totally disregard the "community" here. You are not the co
mmunity. Community is a distinct, independent entity with their own needs, wants and definitions of
right and wrong. They are not here to work toward "your" goal of "quality code" and "resolved issu
es". To work towards creating conducive atmosphere for the community to thrive is absolutely the fi
rst aim of any open project that wants to be successful.
>
>Your comment is a very good example of not understanding the basics of open source projects.
Your statement excludes the possibility of a community wanting such
properties of a development tree; as member of the community, quality
all the time is a worthwhile goal; if I want to tinker with code, I don't
see a reason to bestow the breakage that causes onto others.
Casper
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 12:23 AM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> >The size of an OSS community is irrelevant if the
> community
> >cannot provide quality code to resolve issues. I
> include
> >both bugs *and* RFEs in "issues".
>
> That is your view, sir. You completely, totally
> disregard the "community" here. You are not the
> community. Community is a distinct, independent
> entity with their own needs, wants and definitions of
> right and wrong. They are not here to work toward
> "your" goal of "quality code" and "resolved issues".
> To work towards creating conducive atmosphere for the
> community to thrive is absolutely the first aim of
> any open project that wants to be successful.
>
> Your comment is a very good example of not
> understanding the basics of open source projects.
> This is what most people imply when they say {When it
> comes to open source} "Sun just doesn't get it".
Well, that's what you imply, anyway.
I probably want very different things, and while it's entirely possible I'm
alone in that, it's perhaps not likely. I've seen organizations grow in
size faster than the core grew in maturity; it's usually a
disaster for the organization, for what it's allegedly trying to accomplish
(I personally suspect that any organization larger than about a dozen people,
i.e. all that can each personally hold all the others accountable, ends up being
interested in continuing to exist first, and only with constant effort manages
to keep focused on accomplishing their nominal goals), and harmful to the
participants.
I want a better Solaris. Yes, I want the rest opened up too. And more
outside participation at all levels. But with most of the expertise and
investment from one place, I'd only expect most of the work to come
from that same place, and accordingly, most of the agenda as well.
That doesn't preclude anyone from participating and thereby increasing
the outside investment. And I'd be as glad as the next person when
some sort of externally accessible SCM is fully functional, along with
some outside committers, a bit more streamlining of process (but not
to the detriment of quality!), and so on.
And I like the focus on quality over rapid introduction of new code,
although I'm certainly not opposed to the increase in desktop/laptop
support (of which quite a bit has already taken place in the last couple of
years!).
So unless you can point out _specific_ needs, wants, etc. that can't be
met either now or with actions already underway, I just don't see what
your point is. No particular license is IMO going to make that much of
a difference in a positive way, and dual-licensing would just result in the
giant sucking sound of code leaving and once modified a bit, not coming back.
I have no problem with Solaris, Linux, and the *BSDs feeding each other
ideas, but I think they'd mostly all be better off not using each others code
all that much anyway (with some major exceptions that are largely possible
except that the Linux folks just don't seem to want to go there; like porting
zfs as a loadable module for Linux).
I for one don't automatically suspect the motives of corporations (and for
example see no more reason to regard Sun with suspicion that RedHat); or
rather, I respect their motivations, as long as they have a real clue what
_enlightened_ self-interest is; and I see no reason thus far to doubt that in the
case of Sun and OpenSolaris. As far as I can see, they've been doing the things
they said they'd do, give or take some schedule slippage. That's all you can
expect from anyone, really.
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:07 AM
in response to: rlhamil
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"Richard L. Hamilton" <rlhamil at smart dot net> wrote:
> So unless you can point out _specific_ needs, wants, etc. that can't be
> met either now or with actions already underway, I just don't see what
> your point is. No particular license is IMO going to make that much of
> a difference in a positive way, and dual-licensing would just result in the
> giant sucking sound of code leaving and once modified a bit, not coming back.
> I have no problem with Solaris, Linux, and the *BSDs feeding each other
> ideas, but I think they'd mostly all be better off not using each others code
> all that much anyway (with some major exceptions that are largely possible
> except that the Linux folks just don't seem to want to go there; like porting
> zfs as a loadable module for Linux).
The important point is that the Linux folks just don't seem to want to use
code from OpenSolaris and you cannot change this by dual licensing.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 2:36 PM
in response to: sdestika
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>[b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank you.[/b]
How nice of you.
S Destika <sdestika at excite dot com>
I was about to send a repy but now I won't.
Casper
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James C. McPher...
James.McPherson@Sun....
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 2:37 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
> [b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank you.[/b]
If you cannot be bothered setting up a valid email
address for the mailing lists then perhaps you're
not really interested in being part of the community.
James C. McPherson
--
Solaris kernel software engineer
Sun Microsystems
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 4:25 PM
in response to: James C. McPher...
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On Thursday 01 February 2007 02:37 pm, James C. McPherson wrote:
> S Destika wrote:
> > [b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank
> > you.[/b]
>
> If you cannot be bothered setting up a valid email
> address for the mailing lists then perhaps you're
> not really interested in being part of the community.
I just don't reply to folks like that. Why should I? I don't know they'll read
it...
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of Insourcing at Sun, hire people that care about our company!
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 11:24 PM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote On 02/02/07 07:22,:
> [b]Do not reply to me - I read this forum. My email ID is INVALID. Thank you.[/b]
>
>
>>James C. McPherson wrote:
>
>
>>>Hi Erast,
>>>I *really* do not understand why you appear to be
>>
>>so concerned
>>
>>>about how large or extensive the OpenSolaris
>>
>>community actually
>>
>>>is.
>>>
>>>Yes, the number of those who would call themselves
>>
>>part of the
>>
>>>OpenSolaris community is probably not as large as
>>
>>Linux-adherents,
>>
>>>but who really cares? Why does it matter?
>
>
> Well duh..! As a community project one of the measures of success is definitely community participation and how big it is.
Personally, I'm much more comfortable with a smaller group that is more
active and open then always having the need to have an ever larger and
larger group. Growth is great, but up to a point. I see the community
growing as a series of concentric circles around the code, and the
further you go out the more non-technical you get. Not the best analogy,
I agree, but good enough for my point. We are still not really that
attractive to non-technical people because there's not much for them to
do. Hopefully, that will change over time and we should specifically try
to change that.
Jim
> If you need reasons - better x86{_64} support, lots of drivers (as a testament - I have till now failed to install Solaris on any of my 8 x86/64 machines - Linux runs just fine there and recognizes most hardware thrown at it), quicker resolution of people's problems and addition of new features/improvements (suspend/resume anyone?), new architecture support - lots of reasons why OpenSolaris needs larger community. No? You think what was not possible in last year without community participation will be possible going forward without community? Do you think Sun engineers are going to spend their time fixing Joe Random's problems?
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Posts:
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 3:29 AM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> Well duh..! As a community project one of the
> measures of success is definitely community
> participation and how big it is.
Not exactly. Success of a platform is measured by the availability of software for that platform. Even the most advanced platform in the world is useless if there is no software for you or me to do what we want with the computer / supercomputer / cluster / network.
Computer history taught us that lots of software drives platform adoption, which in turn drives even more software development for the platform.
> If you need reasons - better x86{_64} support, lots
> of drivers (as a testament - I have till now failed
> to install Solaris on any of my 8 x86/64 machines -
> Linux runs just fine there and recognizes most
> hardware thrown at it), quicker resolution of
> people's problems and addition of new
i86pc platform support is the best Solaris has ever seen. Most of the common hardware is supported. Granted that some could be supported better -- Solaris isn't perfect, but there are only so many hours in a day.
As for quicker resolution of problems, for circa $365 USD a year, you can get 24x7x365 Solaris Platinum support. Divide that by the number of days in a year, and you get some rediculously small sum.
And if it's OK to pay money through the nose for RedHat or Microsoft support, I don't see why paying such a rediculously low amount of dollars would be unacceptable if one wishes high quality / better support.
> features/improvements (suspend/resume anyone?), new
> architecture support - lots of reasons why
> OpenSolaris needs larger community. No? You think
> what was not possible in last year without community
> participation will be possible going forward without
> community? Do you think Sun engineers are going to
> spend their time fixing Joe Random's problems?
They will, if Joe Random pays the above sum. Then they have to, you see, because then it will be their job; one effectively hires an entire army of some of the most ingenious engineers in the computer industry, ever.
We do need more people, but not the Linux hacker kind. All those would want to do is muck with Solaris so that it looks, works and behaves like Linux. Unfortunately, Linux suffers from serious lack of engineering and quality control because everything is implemented ad-hoc by people who think they know UNIX better than profesional engineers and scientists that have spent the better 35 years studying and working on computing challenges and problems. Believe me, that is not what you want for Solaris; the quality would suffer, and Solaris would no longer be what it is, and what it makes Solaris so great.
I believe that the kind of people Solaris would most benefit from are the BSD old skoolers. Those guys actually *care* about the quality of their work, even if they might not necessary always reach it. At the very least, they *strive*, instead of the "it works for me, that's all I care about, if it doesn't work for you, you have the source code" Linux hacker attitude; not everyone is a UNIX programming guru; some people just want to *use* UNIX and get *stuff done* on UNIX. Not everybody is a programmer, and assuming that everybody would have to be is just plain wrong ideology. That's why our GNU/GPL/Linux pals don't really have any long term future, no matter how many *millions* of hackers they have at their disposal.
In closing, if we want to attract programming talent and expertise, we should more closely work with, and even help the BSD community, even if we have to put on hold what we're doing on Solaris. Eventually the two communities might "jump in" for each other, and both communities would benefit. Friendship and fun while working at it is always a nice bonus (:-)
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Posts:
101
From:
IT
Registered:
9/21/05
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 4:25 AM
in response to: ux-admin
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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[i]In closing, if we want to attract programming talent and expertise, we should more closely work with, and even help the BSD community, even if we have to put on hold what we're doing on Solaris. Eventually the two communities might "jump in" for each other, and both communities would benefit. Friendship and fun while working at it is always a nice bonus (:-)
[/i]
Could be a form of official collaboration between BSD and OpenSolaris Community?
I think,for example,to shared device driver,developers and exchange of technologies covered by BSD and CDDL license.
Could be our official initiative to build a bridge between two communities?
Giacomo
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Posts:
107
From:
US
Registered:
12/2/05
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 4:42 AM
in response to: ux-admin
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UNIX admin wrote:
>
> We do need more people, but not the Linux hacker kind. All those would want to do is muck with Solaris so that it looks, works and behaves like Linux. Unfortunately, Linux suffers from serious lack of engineering and quality control because everything is implemented ad-hoc by people who think they know UNIX better than profesional engineers and scientists that have spent the better 35 years studying and working on computing challenges and problems. Believe me, that is not what you want for Solaris; the quality would suffer, and Solaris would no longer be what it is, and what it makes Solaris so great.
>
> I believe that the kind of people Solaris would most benefit from are the BSD old skoolers. Those guys actually *care* about the quality of their work, even if they might not necessary always reach it. At the very least, they *strive*, instead of the "it works for me, that's all I care about, if it doesn't work for you, you have the source code" Linux hacker attitude; not everyone is a UNIX programming guru; some people just want to *use* UNIX and get *stuff done* on UNIX. Not everybody is a programmer, and assuming that everybody would have to be is just plain wrong ideology. That's why our GNU/GPL/Linux pals don't really have any long term future, no matter how many *millions* of hackers they have at their disposal.
>
Being a BSD somewhat-old skooler (but not old-old skooler, I wasn't in
CSRG ;-)), I can say that in the *BSD world, there has always been great
respect for Solaris. It has always been seen as the OS that got a great
number of things right, and often, during technical discussions, at
least one person always came up with "let's see what Solaris did"
(though we couldn't look at source code).
To your more general point: growing an open source OS community is
somewhat of a balancing act. Putting an emphasis on code quality and
"educating" your developers is good. But, you also have to promote
yourself, otherwise you won't attract any new developers in the long
run. With popularity also come annoyances. There will be much more noise
on mailing lists, which can drown out the good technical discussions,
leaving the early developers longing for the "old days". But, without
popularity, you'll be destined to occupy no more than a niche. NetBSD is
an example of this. We always stressed code quality and portability, but
neglected features that attract average users, and neglected promoting
ourselves. Which led to NetBSD becoming probably the smallest *BSD
community (though it's not easy to have hard numbers on that), despite
being the first of the current *BSDs to come into existence.
That's why I'm glad that there is a push to expand the OpenSolaris
community from within Sun. We need to build aa fertile base to grow
developers from, so to speak. However, I have strong doubts whether
adding GPLv3 as a license is a good way to do this.
- Frank
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Simon Phipps
Simon.Phipps@Sun.COM
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 5:36 AM
in response to: ux-admin
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 11:29, UNIX admin wrote:
> We do need more people, but not the Linux hacker kind.
You know, there are people over there who say the same thing about
us. I don't agree with them either.
S.
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 6:20 AM
in response to: Simon Phipps
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> You know, there are people over there who say the
> same thing about
> us. I don't agree with them either.
I'd say you're right, there probably are; but, people like me care as much for them as they do for me. No problem there.
The thing is this:
they said Sun is closed and proprietary -- you've given them most contributions of any company;
they said Solaris is "Slowlaris" and that "Linux rulez" -- Solaris now runs as fast or faster than Linux;
then they said Solaris is closed source and proprietary, and that open sourcing Solaris is a lie -- OpenSolaris exists for more than a year now;
they complained and moaned how the tools are not gratis -- Sun has released the whole middleware stack and the compilers for free-as-in-beer.
You -- we all -- consistently proved them wrong, point for point -- but what good did it bring? Those people are stuck -- no matter what we as a community and no matter what Sun did, they kept making up one excuse after another. They're still not using Solaris, still prefer GCC to Sun Studio, still complain how Solaris isn't GPL. So let me ask you all this: if Solaris is GPLed, what will the next excuse be?
Those guys aren't going to accept Solaris. They're fundamentalists who don't use something based on technical merit, but based on ideological merit. And to me, that's the wrong reason to use an OS.
The only way those people might ever be *compelled* to accept Solaris is if Solaris delivers everything Linux has, but in a Solaris way -- a clearly better way -- and markets that, point for point. It's the software availability and the end users and customers that will make or break Solaris -- not a few million Linux geeks stuck in their ideological dogma.
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 11:00 AM
in response to: ux-admin
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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>
> Those guys aren't going to accept Solaris. They're
> fundamentalists who don't use something based on
> technical merit, but based on ideological merit. And
> to me, that's the wrong reason to use an OS.
>
> The only way those people might ever be *compelled*
> to accept Solaris is if Solaris delivers everything
> Linux has, but in a Solaris way -- a clearly better
> way -- and markets that, point for point. It's the
> software availability and the end users and customers
> that will make or break Solaris -- not a few million
> Linux geeks stuck in their ideological dogma.
No sir. They do not accept Solaris because firstly they believe freedom is priceless and that a for-profit company in drivers seat driving things the deem fit, there cannot be freedom and no one likes to work for free for somebody else's cause. Secondly most use x86 and Solaris won't work there and if they are to fix it they would have to go thru some good amount of red tapism, instead of just fixing it and integrating it in the main tree.
Fix both of the above and do away with your protectionist and wrong ways and you will see a surge in usage and participation.
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 11:05 AM
in response to: sdestika
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S Destika wrote:
> Secondly most use x86 and Solaris won't work there
I'll admit there are some areas that need improvement, but
Solaris certainly works on x86, and more Solaris users are
now on x86 than SPARC, so it's getting a lot of attention
to fix the deficiencies.
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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268
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 11:33 AM
in response to: alanc
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I think that maybe x86 *is* the main area where we need help
from device driver writers who have done the compatibility
heavy lifting for Linux already.
Is there a licensing problem in getting their work onto Open
Solaris for x64/x86?
Would the GPLv3 even solve the problem?
Outside of this camp, I think we are looking at a green field
of folks who are not necessarily coming from Linux to Solaris,
but maybe getting involved with kernel development for the first
time by getting their feet wet with Solaris.
-- mark
Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> S Destika wrote:
>> Secondly most use x86 and Solaris won't work there
>
> I'll admit there are some areas that need improvement, but
> Solaris certainly works on x86, and more Solaris users are
> now on x86 than SPARC, so it's getting a lot of attention
> to fix the deficiencies.
>
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 5, 2007 10:50 AM
in response to: mac
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> I think that maybe x86 *is* the main area where we
> need help
> from device driver writers who have done the
> compatibility
> heavy lifting for Linux already.
>
> Is there a licensing problem in getting their work
> onto Open
> Solaris for x64/x86?
The most bizzarre part is the fact that Linux drivers are completely incompatible with Solaris. One couldn't even port them without actually rewriting them from the ground up.
It would seem that people who want Solaris to be GPL and use Linux drivers issue as an argument aren't even aware of this fact. Perplexing.
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Posts:
372
From:
AR
Registered:
2/2/06
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3
ravings)
Posted:
Feb 5, 2007 11:01 AM
in response to: ux-admin
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On 2/5/07, UNIX admin <tripivceta at hotmail dot com> wrote:
> > I think that maybe x86 *is* the main area where we
> > need help
> > from device driver writers who have done the
> > compatibility
> > heavy lifting for Linux already.
> >
> > Is there a licensing problem in getting their work
> > onto Open
> > Solaris for x64/x86?
>
> The most bizzarre part is the fact that Linux drivers are completely incompatible with Solaris. One couldn't even port them without actually rewriting them from the ground up.
>
> It would seem that people who want Solaris to be GPL and use Linux drivers issue as an argument aren't even aware of this fact. Perplexing.
>
And the fact that to integrate them properly ( ie without effectively
killing the CDDL part of opensolaris), they would also have to be dual
licensed
nacho
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AR
Registered:
2/2/06
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 11:26 AM
in response to: sdestika
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>
> No sir. They do not accept Solaris because firstly they believe freedom is priceless and that a for-profit company in drivers seat driving things the deem fit, there cannot be freedom and no one likes to work for free for somebody else's cause.
marketing, just marketing, changing the license won't solve the
problem for the simple fact that Solaris is sun's product and most of
the changes to the ON will still come from sun. In any case,
evangelizm can solve the issue, CDDL is free by any standard, even the
FSF thinks so, their only problem with it is that it is just not GPL
compatible. That might change with GPLv3, there is some focus in
license compatibility these days.
Secondly most use x86 and Solaris won't work there and if they are to
fix it they would have to go thru some good amount of red tapism,
instead of just fixing it and integrating it in the main tree.
>
"find an application that solves the problem in hand, then pick the os
that runs it the best and finally pick the right hardware for the os"
that should be the number one rule for any sysadmin picking hardware.
Hobbyists might have some problems with hardware and solaris, I agree
there, but it is not nearly as bad as you paint it.
i had 0 problems getting solaris to work in my desktop and except for
the wireless card everything in the laptop i'm using works, this is a
Dell 640m. Red tape is a necesary evil to get high quality software
and you'll find that most here agree. In fact it is that high quality
that drives people to solaris, without that it would just be another
linux, a product that just works fine most of the time
> Fix both of the above and do away with your protectionist and wrong ways and you will see a surge in usage and participation.
>
>
nacho
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Posts:
689
From:
GB
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 3:43 PM
in response to: nacho
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 19:26, Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote:
> In any case,
> evangelizm can solve the issue, CDDL is free by any standard, even the
> FSF thinks so, their only problem with it is that it is just not GPL
> compatible. That might change with GPLv3, there is some focus in
> license compatibility these days.
Based on the advice I have most recently received, I am not expecting
the GPLv3 to be compatible with any Mozilla-like (what I call
"Category B"[1]) license.
S.
[1] http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/whitepapers/
Sun_Microsystems_OpenSource_Licensing.pdf
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From:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 4, 2007 5:14 AM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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I've seen more domineering, tyrannical behavior in "voluntary"
neighborhood improvement associations than in for-profit businesses.
And I'm quite sure I could find in writing times that one of the Linux
bigwigs has in effect said "not only no, but _HELL_ no!" to something.
The good thing about making money is that at least it shows someone
is willing to spend it for what you offer.
The good thing about red tape is it keeps garbage out; once something
gets in, it works. That doesn't have to mean that things _have_ to happen
all that much slower, it just means you work in a private branch until you're done,
resync, and then you better be prepared to show that what you've got is valuable
to someone, doesn't break or degrade anything else (or that you've solved that
too), and is maintainable.
I'd _really_ like to see a count of x86/x64 hardware support new from Solaris 10
on; I bet it's a lot more than those that think x86 is being ignored would believe.
Even better would be a bar graph by month, with explanations for some of the
peaks (such as if a bunch of drivers were aquired or adopted from the same source
pretty much all at once). I'd guess they'd show steady or even increasing progress.
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 5, 2007 6:34 AM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> No sir. They do not accept Solaris because firstly
> they believe freedom is priceless and that a
> for-profit company in drivers seat driving things the
> deem fit, there cannot be freedom and no one likes to
> work for free for somebody else's cause. Secondly
> most use x86 and Solaris won't work there and if they
> are to fix it they would have to go thru some good
> amount of red tapism, instead of just fixing it and
> integrating it in the main tree.
Excuse me, but how is it OK that the Fedora project effectively works for RedHat *for free*, where RedHat gets to pick and choose what flows back into RedHat AS and ES, but it's *not OKay* when Sun wants to do the same?
Or is the difference really that the Fedora community gets to mess up Fedora core really bad, which has happened several times so far, and the OpenSolaris community remains protective of OpenSolaris?
It seems to me, that that's your beef really. You don't like the fact that there are processes established which effectively prevent messing up OpenSolaris everwhichway one pleases, and you also seem to have beef with the fact that most of the OpenSolaris community are Sun engineers which have quite a bit of influence on the process.
Personally, I have no problem with that; when I decided to be part of the OpenSolaris community, I accepted that, and in fact, I'm grateful that that is the state of affairs; I don't want OpenSolaris screwed up just because someone wants to scratch their immediate itch, and compatibility be damned. No sir, I don't want that, no ifs, no buts, and no maybes.
And just for the record, I am (unfortunately) in no way associated with Sun Microsystems.
> Fix both of the above and do away with your
> protectionist and wrong ways and you will see a surge
> in usage and participation.
I have more i86pc systems running Solaris 10 than I have SPARC systems running the aforementioned OS and revision. I believe that speaks for itself quite clearly apropos "Solaris not running on x86".
Not only does Solaris 10 (which is quite behind Nevada) run well on *generic* x86 hardware. it *screams* how fast and how good it runs. I'd sure like to know which issue(s) you had with Solaris so that it doesn't run. So far I've either missed you mentioning any details, or you haven't given any.
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 10:23 AM
in response to: sdestika
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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To be fair, since the community version of Solaris is moving so fast--at least as far as I am concerned (seems like Sun's engineers have found a sweet spot), the term "Solaris" can indeed be very ambiguous w/o qualifying it with a Build number.
OTOH, it is also quite obvious that Solaris could not have moved so fast w/o a strong community (i.e., user) participation. As we all know, participations can be passive or active. It should be mainly a matter of time before there will be more of the latter, I think.
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 2:03 PM
in response to: Guest
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On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:57 pm, James C. McPherson wrote:
> Yes, the number of those who would call themselves part of the
> OpenSolaris community is probably not as large as Linux-adherents,
> but who really cares? Why does it matter?
Hear, hear!
One thing is for certain...the Linux community shook the world. Here we are
discussing our existince with them, it's something we can't ignore.
I am in no way advocating we join them, I am in no way saying we follow them,
I am merely advocating for a way both of us can exist with each other
peacefully.
I would appreciate it if our OpenSolaris community is recognized by other
communities as being some of the innovators, and I think OpenSolaris is
already by many. It is not mandatory that we are though, and I won't loose
sleep over it if we aren't.
Sun has made a massive amount of changes to their process and code in order to
make it available in the community, something that was a far fetched idea a
couple years ago.
Is it bad we see some of the Sun folks protecting their investing in Solaris?
I think not, some poured their lives into it, just like some of the Linux
community poured theirs into their work. The name calling just doesn't help
either of us.
It's kind of interesting seeing a substantial percentage of Sun folks (who
know the process inside of Sun BTW;-) that seem to feel we've made good
progress. OTOH, I would say most of the community folks don't feel it's made
very much progress at all. Perspective is relative.
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of Insourcing at Sun, hire people that care about our company!
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94
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Registered:
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Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 6:36 PM
in response to: aland
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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[b] To all - Please fix the forum s/w to allow me to change my email ID and I promise I will do it next moment - please STOP complaining about it. I believe it should be fixed the right way - which benefits all - by fixing the forum software.[/b]
> It's kind of interesting seeing a substantial
> percentage of Sun folks (who
> know the process inside of Sun BTW;-) that seem to
> feel we've made good
> progress.
It depends on how you define progress. I agree that most Sun folks feel they have made good progress but like marketing folks they conveniently ignore defining and quantifying progress.
>OTOH, I would say most of the community
> folks don't feel it's made
> very much progress at all. Perspective is relative.
That's true too and Alan I _really_ appreciate that you are the only Sun employee to admit that. But I think the reality is that OpenSolaris has made no progress whatsoever and when I say that I will not ignore defining and quantifying it -
So let us see what was the prime objective of OpenSolaris - Increase use of Solaris (Use It), Let the community contribute improvements they need and love ( Improve It ) and spread it so we further increase use and community contributions(Evangelize).
1) Community participation has remained very low. To date greater than 90% (very unscientific and conservative estimate) of OpenSolaris changes are driven by Sun's business interests and they come from Sun employees. (Look at commits, look at general development direction - nothing there for more x86 drivers which is what community might benefit from)
2) People do not feel they own a bit or two of OpenSolaris. That feeling remains totally with Sun. (People have expressed this elsewhere in GPLv3 and Community Participation threads)
3) Contributing changes remains hard (Everyone agrees and does nothing urgently about this - I am tired of hearing it is getting fixed)
I clearly see this as failure in meeting all objectives.
What should Sun do about this? Get out the way. It's really that simple.
a) Open all the bits (no binary blobs for the main OS and libraries. No dependencies which cannot be fixed/modified by people other than Sun employees
b) GPL v2 it ! (Ok, we can settle with v3 if it comes to it). Encourage sharing of source both ways - it is the most logical thing to do. Like Alan said you cannot ignore Linux however you would like.
c) Let people control changes in OpenSolaris. Let some one unrelated to Sun setup a SCM and create a fair, inviting and truly open development model where people can feel they can have a say and drive things and they can be free to drive the development according to their needs
d) Let Sun pull changes they need from the open, independent tree. And let the independent tree pull changes they need from Sun's development. No conflict of interest.
The need for independent ecosystem for OpenSolaris stems from very simple to understand human nature - No sane person likes to work according to some one else's needs, wants, priorities and on someone else's conditions, especially when they are working for free. It kills the whole "open" spirit.
So long as Sun asserts control over this (or even Java) project this isn't going to get any different - Sun making most changes to Solaris, driven by their business needs and very insignificant ( both numbers and change magnitude/impact wise) community contributions.
James C. M. - So if you feel complacent it remains this way, apart from failing all objectives of the project (see http://opensolaris.org) what else did this project achieve?
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1,156
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 1, 2007 9:51 PM
in response to: sdestika
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disregard my previous post - I didn't realise that you were having
issues changing it. email me your new email address and i'll update
your account.
cheers,
steve
On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 06:36:03PM -0800, S Destika wrote:
> [b] To all - Please fix the forum s/w to allow me to change my email ID and I promise I will do it next moment - please STOP complaining about it. I believe it should be fixed the right way - which benefits all - by fixing the forum software.[/b]
>
> > It's kind of interesting seeing a substantial
> > percentage of Sun folks (who
> > know the process inside of Sun BTW;-) that seem to
> > feel we've made good
> > progress.
> It depends on how you define progress. I agree that most Sun folks feel they have made good progress but like marketing folks they conveniently ignore defining and quantifying progress.
>
> >OTOH, I would say most of the community
> > folks don't feel it's made
> > very much progress at all. Perspective is relative.
>
> That's true too and Alan I _really_ appreciate that you are the only Sun employee to admit that. But I think the reality is that OpenSolaris has made no progress whatsoever and when I say that I will not ignore defining and quantifying it -
>
> So let us see what was the prime objective of OpenSolaris - Increase use of Solaris (Use It), Let the community contribute improvements they need and love ( Improve It ) and spread it so we further increase use and community contributions(Evangelize).
>
> 1) Community participation has remained very low. To date greater than 90% (very unscientific and conservative estimate) of OpenSolaris changes are driven by Sun's business interests and they come from Sun employees. (Look at commits, look at general development direction - nothing there for more x86 drivers which is what community might benefit from)
> 2) People do not feel they own a bit or two of OpenSolaris. That feeling remains totally with Sun. (People have expressed this elsewhere in GPLv3 and Community Participation threads)
> 3) Contributing changes remains hard (Everyone agrees and does nothing urgently about this - I am tired of hearing it is getting fixed)
>
> I clearly see this as failure in meeting all objectives.
>
> What should Sun do about this? Get out the way. It's really that simple.
>
> a) Open all the bits (no binary blobs for the main OS and libraries. No dependencies which cannot be fixed/modified by people other than Sun employees
> b) GPL v2 it ! (Ok, we can settle with v3 if it comes to it). Encourage sharing of source both ways - it is the most logical thing to do. Like Alan said you cannot ignore Linux however you would like.
> c) Let people control changes in OpenSolaris. Let some one unrelated to Sun setup a SCM and create a fair, inviting and truly open development model where people can feel they can have a say and drive things and they can be free to drive the development according to their needs
> d) Let Sun pull changes they need from the open, independent tree. And let the independent tree pull changes they need from Sun's development. No conflict of interest.
>
> The need for independent ecosystem for OpenSolaris stems from very simple to understand human nature - No sane person likes to work according to some one else's needs, wants, priorities and on someone else's conditions, especially when they are working for free. It kills the whole "open" spirit.
>
> So long as Sun asserts control over this (or even Java) project this isn't going to get any different - Sun making most changes to Solaris, driven by their business needs and very insignificant ( both numbers and change magnitude/impact wise) community contributions.
>
> James C. M. - So if you feel complacent it remains this way, apart from failing all objectives of the project (see http://opensolaris.org) what else did this project achieve?
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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94
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Community participation (was GPLv3 ravings)
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 10:11 AM
in response to: stevel
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
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> disregard my previous post - I didn't realise that
> you were having
> issues changing it. email me your new email address
> and i'll update
> your account.
sdest at startvclub dot com - Please update (People will now have to find new reasons to flame me - kidding :).
But I would have been happy to see jive fixed to allow people do this on their own. Any way... Thank you.
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