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Replies:
6
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Last Post:
Feb 3, 2007 8:48 AM
by: ds2719
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What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 4:15 PM
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[No Body]
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 4:15 PM
in response to: Guest
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--- Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Complexity *is* the issue. With 15 million lines of very complex
> code,
> I would argue it would take a long time for the non-Sun kernel
> developers to outnumber the Sun kernel developers. Actually, given
> the
> total number of kernel developers in the world, I'd wager it will
> never
> happen.
>
> I don't know how else to explain this. So either I'm not
> understanding
> your point or you're not understanding mine.
You mean to say that only people from Sun are now able to comprehend
and modify the complexity that is Solaris?
I suggest that maybe Solaris really need some fresh blood to entangle
the mess of complexity. Besides, if it's really that complex that
IBM, MSFT, APPLE, GOOG, and RH people can't figure it out, what do
you have to fear from the basement long-haired hippies? Hmmm?
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Posts:
147
From:
Menlo Park, CA
Registered:
5/2/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 4:53 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
> --- Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
>
>> Complexity *is* the issue. With 15 million lines of very complex
>> code,
>> I would argue it would take a long time for the non-Sun kernel
>> developers to outnumber the Sun kernel developers. Actually, given
>> the
>> total number of kernel developers in the world, I'd wager it will
>> never
>> happen.
>>
>> I don't know how else to explain this. So either I'm not
>> understanding
>> your point or you're not understanding mine.
>>
>
> You mean to say that only people from Sun are now able to comprehend
> and modify the complexity that is Solaris?
>
Yes. Not because they are vastly smarter than everyone else; just
because they wrote most of it and have been studying it for decades.
You may be able to get experts to figure out various pieces of
OpenSolaris, but to assemble a team that will be able to comprehend
every aspect of OpenSolaris, is an undertaking so large, I don't think
it'll happen.
> I suggest that maybe Solaris really need some fresh blood to entangle
> the mess of complexity. Besides, if it's really that complex that
> IBM, MSFT, APPLE, GOOG, and RH people can't figure it out, what do
> you have to fear from the basement long-haired hippies? Hmmm?
>
I have nothing to fear. In fact, I welcome it. I see a dual-license as
extending our community to include *more* people. It seems that the
more vocal ones on this discussion are the ones that fear "the basement
long-haired hippies". (And before you yell at me, I'm just quoting
Chris. I'm not saying that only basement long-haired hippies like GPL.)
> Chris Mahan
> 818.943.1850 cell
> chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
> chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
> http://www.christophermahan.com/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________ _____
> Never miss an email again!
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> _______________________________________________
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> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
--
Stephen Harpster
Director, Open Source Software
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Posts:
107
From:
US
Registered:
12/2/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:04 PM
in response to: harpster
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Stephen Harpster wrote:
>
> You may be able to get experts to figure out various pieces of
> OpenSolaris, but to assemble a team that will be able to comprehend
> every aspect of OpenSolaris, is an undertaking so large, I don't think
> it'll happen.
You might think that, and I can understand that thought. It is right to
be proud of Solaris and creating and understanding it as a company, and
having great engineers that understand it.
However, if you take this statement and replace "OpenSolaris" by "BSD",
and spoken as someone at the CSRG at Berkeley you'll see that it might
not hold true.. Once all the code was out there, enough people appeared
that understood BSD well enough to to create not one, not two, but three
different versions.
- Frank
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Posts:
1,539
From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 10:14 PM
in response to: harpster
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>>
>> You mean to say that only people from Sun are now able to comprehend
>> and modify the complexity that is Solaris?
>>
> Yes. Not because they are vastly smarter than everyone else; just
> because they wrote most of it and have been studying it for decades.
This is an excellent point.
I wish I had a way to explain my own frustrations, my own failures
at climbing over all this code. Trying to get a handle on it. I often
stop and I stare at a bookshelf covered in math texts. I have better
tools in my head to deal with those books. Rich Teer's book and the
Solaris Internals are right here, along with The Magic Garden Explained
and I'd rather face another year of vector algebra than fight along
through all this source.[1]
Its overwhelming really. Sometimes, well into a pot of coffee at
about four in the morning I just give up. Its not my nature. But its
overwhelming.
Of course the best people for this task are at Sun. People don't
just wake up on Tuesday and think they can write kernel modules by
Friday. Its one thing to have ego and false hope stirred in with
liberal ignorance. Quite another to take those personal curses and
start messing with OpenSolaris like it was an old FIAT engine.
Its overwhelming. It requiress years of study IF you are already
and expert.
> You may be able to get experts to figure out various pieces of
> OpenSolaris, but to assemble a team that will be able to comprehend
> every aspect of OpenSolaris, is an undertaking so large, I don't think
> it'll happen.
If I had a ten million dollar budget, and years of time to gather
up the best minds in universities around the world I don't think
we would have anything of value for five years.
>> I suggest that maybe Solaris really need some fresh blood to entangle
>> the mess of complexity. Besides, if it's really that complex that
>> IBM, MSFT, APPLE, GOOG, and RH people can't figure it out, what do
>> you have to fear from the basement long-haired hippies? Hmmm?
Well ... I happen to be one of those basement long-haired hippie types.
I can't crunch all that code but I can help where I can. I think that
is why I do what I do. Maybe we need people that can "do" and we need
people that can "help".
Is this what community is about?
I think so.
Dennis Clarke
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Bryan Cantrill
bmc@eng.sun.com
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 4:53 PM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 04:15:15PM -0800, Christopher Mahan wrote:
>
> --- Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
> > Complexity *is* the issue. With 15 million lines of very complex
> > code,
> > I would argue it would take a long time for the non-Sun kernel
> > developers to outnumber the Sun kernel developers. Actually, given
> > the
> > total number of kernel developers in the world, I'd wager it will
> > never
> > happen.
> >
> > I don't know how else to explain this. So either I'm not
> > understanding
> > your point or you're not understanding mine.
>
> You mean to say that only people from Sun are now able to comprehend
> and modify the complexity that is Solaris?
It's not so much ability as it is circumstance: the engineers that wrote
it happen to be in Sun's employ. Moreover, economics dictates that those
engineers will largely remain in Sun's employ, at least for the immediate
future. That is, it's not that IBM, MSFT, GOOG and co. _can't_ figure
it out (necessarily), it's that they have no economic reason for doing
so (at the moment). AAPL is a different story: they have decided that
there are certain key OpenSolaris technologies like ZFS and DTrace that
match their direction for their operating system, and they are engaged
in porting these technologies to their system. It thus makes sense for
AAPL to pay software engineers six-figure salaries to understand these
technologies -- and it should come as no surprise that the majority
of real implementation expertise on these two technologies outside of
Sun is at AAPL. So the essence of Stephen's argument is not based on
ability, but rather on the economics of skilled labor...
- Bryan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Cantrill, Solaris Kernel Development. http://blogs.sun.com/bmc
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Posts:
2
From:
Registered:
2/18/06
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 8:48 AM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
<pre wrap="">--- Stephen Harpster <Stephen dot Harpster at Sun dot COM> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Complexity *is* the issue. With 15 million lines of very complex
code,
I would argue it would take a long time for the non-Sun kernel
developers to outnumber the Sun kernel developers. Actually, given
the
total number of kernel developers in the world, I'd wager it will
never
happen.
I don't know how else to explain this. So either I'm not
understanding
your point or you're not understanding mine.
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
You mean to say that only people from Sun are now able to comprehend
and modify the complexity that is Solaris?
I suggest that maybe Solaris really need some fresh blood to entangle
the mess of complexity. Besides, if it's really that complex that
IBM, MSFT, APPLE, GOOG, and RH people can't figure it out, what do
you have to fear from the basement long-haired hippies? Hmmm?
</pre>
I think that is what Steve is saying. There is nothing to fear.
Forking won't happen. So what is your point? Do you really think any
of these companies is going to drop their OS efforts and work full bore
on OpenSolaris? Not likely. And if even one of them does, OpenSolaris
grows, which is all off our goals, I hope.
<pre wrap="">
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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</pre>
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