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Replies:
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Last Post:
Feb 27, 2007 7:16 PM
by: aland
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What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:21 PM
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[No Body]
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Posts:
689
From:
GB
Registered:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:21 PM
in response to: Guest
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 00:59, Alan Burlison wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>
>> So what do they bring to the party? They bring a passionate group
>> of innovators, geeks, radicals, advocates, hobbyists - enthusiasts
>> - who, if the contacts I have personally had are representative,
>> are eagerly waiting to divert their energy to the promotion, use
>> and development of OpenSolaris as the kernel to the GNU Operating
>> System. That cannot be and is not the only factor, but it's one
>> quite a lot of us find hard to admit. But in my experience it's true.
>
> They why haven't we heard anything at all from them directly on
> this list?
How about because no-one told them about it - right now they don't
belong to this community. I notice the threads are getting publicity,
I am sure some FSF folk will show up soon.
> It seems to me (as others have said) they they will gain far more
> from Solaris going GPLv3 than we will, so it's hardly surprising
> they are in favour, and by-and-large we aren't.
While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd suggest
it's too early to come to that conclusion.
S.
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107
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:27 PM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Feb 3, 2007, at 00:59, Alan Burlison wrote:
>
>> It seems to me (as others have said) they they will gain far more
>> from Solaris going GPLv3 than we will, so it's hardly surprising they
>> are in favour, and by-and-large we aren't.
>
> While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
> substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd suggest
> it's too early to come to that conclusion.
I really don't think it's fair to try to imply that the people opposed
to dual licensing aren't representative because the discussion here has
a limited number of participants, while at the same time trying to back
up your pro-dual licensing stance by talking about vast numbers of
people, none of which have shown up here, and who seem to be hard to
find in general..
- Frank
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:34 PM
in response to: fvdl
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 01:27, Frank Van Der Linden wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2007, at 00:59, Alan Burlison wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me (as others have said) they they will gain far more
>>> from Solaris going GPLv3 than we will, so it's hardly surprising
>>> they are in favour, and by-and-large we aren't.
>>
>> While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
>> substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd
>> suggest it's too early to come to that conclusion.
> I really don't think it's fair to try to imply that the people
> opposed to dual licensing aren't representative because the
> discussion here has a limited number of participants, while at the
> same time trying to back up your pro-dual licensing stance by
> talking about vast numbers of people, none of which have shown up
> here, and who seem to be hard to find in general..
Just the facts, sir.
1. There are ~800 people registered on this list. There are ~15
people in these threads making most of the comments. I conclude that
there are others to hear from. I do not conclude that your view is
either representative or unrepresentative, just that it is your view.
2. As I asserted just a few minutes ago in a message you must have
read because you replied to it, /I have not made up my mind/.
Considering various views and facts is not the same as opposition.
S.
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Posts:
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From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 9:49 PM
in response to: webmink
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> Just the facts, sir.
>
> 1. There are ~800 people registered on this list. There are ~15
> people in these threads making most of the comments. I conclude that
> there are others to hear from. I do not conclude that your view is
> either representative or unrepresentative, just that it is your view.
I have been wading through, trying to keep quiet, reading, deleting. reading
and then wading through ... repeat
There are probably 200 people doing the same.
Dennis
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 11:49 PM
in response to: dclarke
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Dennis Clarke wrote:
>> Just the facts, sir.
>>
>> 1. There are ~800 people registered on this list. There are ~15
>> people in these threads making most of the comments. I conclude that
>> there are others to hear from. I do not conclude that your view is
>> either representative or unrepresentative, just that it is your view.
>>
>
> I have been wading through, trying to keep quiet, reading, deleting. reading
> and then wading through ... repeat
> There are probably 200 people doing the same.
>
Dennis and I don't always agree, but he's right on the money. This is
neither the first nor the last time this discussion will occur and
frankly I don't see it as productive. We'll see success when people are
_involved_ and not just debating and criticizing. The framework needs
significant improvement, love, and time. I'm glad to see people
talking, thats good, we need more of it, but I'd like to see productive
discussion and involvement in the process... making it happen. AVS
became a project today, thats productive, thats interesting... debating
stupid dual licensing gimmicks to pander to an audience that wants
domination rather than cooperation and pointing out failures is a waste.
And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
benr.
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 5:24 AM
in response to: benr
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 07:49, Ben Rockwood wrote:
> This is neither the first nor the last time this discussion will
> occur and frankly I don't see it as productive.
You would rather Sun had not asked? Has there previously been a
conclusive discussion about GPLv3 (I am aware of the discussions
about GPLv2). Do you have evidence that the 18,000 registered on
OpenSolaris.org (or at least the Core Contributors) would reject the
GPLv3 (or embrace it)? Do you have an alternative method to consult?
Would you rather the decision was made secretly? Are governance
discussions "unproductive" by definition because they are not about
code?[1]
I am concerned about the creation of a hostile environment here where
people do not feel free to speak. Maybe folk just assumed that I am
"management at Sun" and therefore pro-whatever-it-is-we-hate, but I
certainly feel flamed for posing a neutral set of comments. I'm
rather fearful of new community members showing up and trying to join
in.
I hear plenty of anger, plenty of fear, plenty of mistrust of Sun,
from the few voices that have spoken up. I'd like to ask people to
channel that into positive proposals, comments and suggestions.
Having them based where possible on data would be good too. That
applies to all parties.
> And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
> comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
What proposal would you make for getting people here to take their
governance responsibilities seriously? It seems people are happy to
hack, but when it comes to running the place (that governance, this
GPLV3 decision) they would rather leave it to others.
S.
[1] These are not necessarily rhetorical
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 6:46 AM
in response to: webmink
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On 2/3/07, Simon Phipps <webmink at sun dot com> wrote:
>
> > And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
> > comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
>
> What proposal would you make for getting people here to take their
> governance responsibilities seriously? It seems people are happy to
> hack, but when it comes to running the place (that governance, this
> GPLV3 decision) they would rather leave it to others.
I'm fairly sure that a flamefest on a mailing list isn't the right way.
Perhaps it's a necessary step, but I don't think it's conducive to
substantive discussions. I'm not bothered about any rhetoric or
hostility, I just don't have the time or energy at the moment to
jump in. Just the volume discourages the silent majority.
For what it's worth, I do take issues of governance seriously, and
have a number of areas of coding where I want to get stuck in, and
have a life to lead, and lots of other things.
Let me turn this around - what can *I* do to make sure that I'm
taking my governance responsibilities seriously?
--
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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GB
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:33 AM
in response to: ptribble
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 14:46, Peter Tribble wrote:
> On 2/3/07, Simon Phipps <webmink at sun dot com> wrote:
>>
>> > And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
>> > comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
>>
>> What proposal would you make for getting people here to take their
>> governance responsibilities seriously? It seems people are happy to
>> hack, but when it comes to running the place (that governance, this
>> GPLV3 decision) they would rather leave it to others.
>
> I'm fairly sure that a flamefest on a mailing list isn't the right
> way.
> Perhaps it's a necessary step, but I don't think it's conducive to
> substantive discussions.
>
I would be pleased if it didn't happen like it has here. There are a
few other lists I am on (notably at Apache) where controversy does
not immediately lead to a flame-war (though no-one hold back from
discussion). But I think it has to be expected, tolerated and perhaps
welcomed as a sign of an open community. I'm hopeful the passion will
soon get channelled to positive discussion (of both the pros and cons).
> I'm not bothered about any rhetoric or
> hostility, I just don't have the time or energy at the moment to
> jump in. Just the volume discourages the silent majority.
Totally agree, it took serious effort to come to the point where I
felt I could participate, and I am hardly "silent majority" :-)
>
> For what it's worth, I do take issues of governance seriously, and
> have a number of areas of coding where I want to get stuck in, and
> have a life to lead, and lots of other things.
This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
>
> Let me turn this around - what can *I* do to make sure that I'm
> taking my governance responsibilities seriously?
Well, in your case I'm pretty sure you do :-) I think that as our
governance matures we'll need to encourage those on the Core
Contributors list to carry this burden actively. Not 100% clear to me
how that will happen yet, maybe (as I suggested elsewhere) through a
list for that purpose.
S.
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 5:29 PM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Feb 3, 2007, at 07:49, Ben Rockwood wrote:
>> This is neither the first nor the last time this discussion will
>> occur and frankly I don't see it as productive.
>
> You would rather Sun had not asked? Has there previously been a
> conclusive discussion about GPLv3 (I am aware of the discussions about
> GPLv2). Do you have evidence that the 18,000 registered on
> OpenSolaris.org (or at least the Core Contributors) would reject the
> GPLv3 (or embrace it)? Do you have an alternative method to consult?
> Would you rather the decision was made secretly? Are governance
> discussions "unproductive" by definition because they are not about
> code?[1]
>
I was not passing judgement on those who've participated in this
discussion, simply answered the "Why there 800 people on this list and
only 15 posting" question from my perspective. Others may agree, others
might not.
As for whether or not governance discussions are productive or not...
they are so long as they lead to completion of governance. Once
governance is complete and a new OGB is in place we begin work on things
that are more interesting, namely refining and honing the development
processes. That work can't be completed until the framework of the
project is hardened.
>> And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
>> comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
>
> What proposal would you make for getting people here to take their
> governance responsibilities seriously? It seems people are happy to
> hack, but when it comes to running the place (that governance, this
> GPLV3 decision) they would rather leave it to others.
Whether or not people care about governance is a personal opinion,
people may feel as they wish. I think more people would care if they
understood the purpose and direction of the project and how governance
fits into that. This goes back to the old discussions on whether the
OGB has enforcable power or not, whether or not Sun Executives can
over-ride the OGB or not, etc.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've not yet seen anyone approach the OGB for an
opinion on these GPLv3 issues. That says something to me.
Many of these fears of which you speak are, I think, out of a sense that
no one is running the show... and that means that Sun Microsystems Inc
(the faceless entity) is in control, not the OGB or engineers or people
with faces regardless of who they work for.
I personally don't worry so much because I happen to know who makes the
decisions. I know that its real people, not some faceless entity. I'm
sure lots of people don't have that luxury and are concerned.
Just a possibility.
benr.
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GB
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 5:41 PM
in response to: benr
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On Feb 4, 2007, at 01:29, Ben Rockwood wrote:
> As for whether or not governance discussions are productive or
> not... they are so long as they lead to completion of governance.
> Once governance is complete and a new OGB is in place we begin work
> on things that are more interesting, namely refining and honing the
> development processes. That work can't be completed until the
> framework of the project is hardened.
Note that by "governance" in this case I mean the question of use of
the GPLv3. Apologies if that was unclear.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I've not yet seen anyone approach the OGB for
> an opinion on these GPLv3 issues. That says something to me.
Actually the OGB has had discussions on the topic which did not lead
to minuted conclusions, and received an e-mail from Jonathan Schwartz
apologising for his off-the-cuff question to Rich Green at JavaOne
and assuring the OGB that he would not take a decision without
consultation.
> Many of these fears of which you speak are, I think, out of a sense
> that no one is running the show... and that means that Sun
> Microsystems Inc (the faceless entity) is in control, not the OGB
> or engineers or people with faces regardless of who they work for.
We are in an interim period when the outgoing OGB feels it has been
given a remit only to run the ratification/election votes - that's an
unfortunate moment for the matter to arise. But even so, I doubt we
would even begin to consider making a decision about the dual-
licensing recommendation to make to the copyright holder without
having the discussion that's now taking place. So while I agree with
you, I'm not sure anything would have been different in, say, March.
S.
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Posts:
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From:
Registered:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re:
[Fwd: Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 27, 2007 7:16 PM
in response to: webmink
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On Saturday 03 February 2007 05:24 am, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2007, at 07:49, Ben Rockwood wrote:
> > This is neither the first nor the last time this discussion will
> > occur and frankly I don't see it as productive.
>
> You would rather Sun had not asked?
Honestly, yes, it wouldn't have been better had Sun not asked. We have seen
this on the list before and it has played out pretty similar to the same
scenario almost every time.
--
Alan DuBoff - Solaris x86 Engineering - IHV/OEM Group
Advocate of Insourcing at Sun, hire people that care about our company!
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Christopher Mahan
chris_mahan@yahoo.com
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 6:37 AM
in response to: benr
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--- Ben Rockwood <benr at cuddletech dot com> wrote:
> And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
> comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
And why is that? Think about it... The governance people are not
giving direction. They want to be leadership, they should be here. Or
maybe the people here should be leadership...
Or even maybe the people here are the leadership...
Chris Mahan
818.943.1850 cell
chris_mahan at yahoo dot com
chris dot mahan at gmail dot com
http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 9:43 AM
in response to: Christopher Mahan
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
> --- Ben Rockwood <benr at cuddletech dot com> wrote:
>
>
>> And may I point out, that while ~15 people are making most of the
>> comments on this thread, less than that are involved in governance.
>
> And why is that? Think about it... The governance people are not
> giving direction. They want to be leadership, they should be here. Or
> maybe the people here should be leadership...
>
> Or even maybe the people here are the leadership...
I think most of the OGB members have chimed in on this conversation. In
general, governance has not been a strong community-wide conversation,
but I have a feeling that will change. :)
Jim
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 3:11 AM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> 1. There are ~800 people registered on this list. There are ~15
> people in these threads making most of the comments. I conclude that
> there are others to hear from. I do not conclude that your view is
> either representative or unrepresentative, just that it is your view.
>
> 2. As I asserted just a few minutes ago in a message you must have
> read because you replied to it, /I have not made up my mind/.
> Considering various views and facts is not the same as opposition.
From your emails, I got the impression that you favoured
dual-licensing. My apologies for misreading your comments.
This discussion was about talking to "the community", and I guess the
problem is: how do you do that? This mailing list is probably the best
thing that is available for such a conversation. As with all community
mailing lists, the number of people subscribed to it is smaller than the
number of users out there, and only a smaller subset of those people
will speak out on any subject. And we don't really know how big the
community is in the first place (number of opensolaris.org registered
user ids is probably the closest thing we have). It could be that this
mailing list is not an accurate representation of the community, but I
think it's the best thing we've got for discussions like this.
- Frank
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GB
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 5:32 AM
in response to: fvdl
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 11:11, Frank Van Der Linden wrote:
> From your emails, I got the impression that you favoured dual-
> licensing. My apologies for misreading your comments.
Thanks, appreciated.
>
> This discussion was about talking to "the community", and I guess
> the problem is: how do you do that? This mailing list is probably
> the best thing that is available for such a conversation. As with
> all community mailing lists, the number of people subscribed to it
> is smaller than the number of users out there, and only a smaller
> subset of those people will speak out on any subject. And we don't
> really know how big the community is in the first place (number of
> opensolaris.org registered user ids is probably the closest thing
> we have). It could be that this mailing list is not an accurate
> representation of the community, but I think it's the best thing
> we've got for discussions like this.
I agree with all this. As I indicated elsewhere, I think this is part
of a big problem we have with governance. The CAB/OGB had ~ no
support from the community as it devised the Charter and then the
Constitution, and the tone of the discussion here has either been
hostile or weary. This won't be the last time there's a need for
community discussion (I expect the final decisions to then be made by
the OGB) and assuming democracy is the right philosophy for
OpenSolaris we're going to have to come up with a way to hold
serious, positive-toned, inclusive discussions.
Maybe what we need is a Core Contributors list? They, after all, are
the ones who elect the OGB so have ultimate responsibility for the
governance of the place. Perhaps such a list with strict rules about
positive discussion would be the best place to explore explosive issues?
S.
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Posts:
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From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:59 AM
in response to: fvdl
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Frank Van Der Linden wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> 1. There are ~800 people registered on this list. There are ~15
>> people in these threads making most of the comments. I conclude that
>> there are others to hear from. I do not conclude that your view is
>> either representative or unrepresentative, just that it is your view.
>>
>> 2. As I asserted just a few minutes ago in a message you must have
>> read because you replied to it, /I have not made up my mind/.
>> Considering various views and facts is not the same as opposition.
> From your emails, I got the impression that you favoured
> dual-licensing. My apologies for misreading your comments.
>
> This discussion was about talking to "the community", and I guess the
> problem is: how do you do that? This mailing list is probably the best
> thing that is available for such a conversation. As with all community
> mailing lists, the number of people subscribed to it is smaller than the
> number of users out there, and only a smaller subset of those people
> will speak out on any subject. And we don't really know how big the
> community is in the first place (number of opensolaris.org registered
> user ids is probably the closest thing we have).
As of right now, we have 21,281 registrations on the site and another
4,000 or so who are subscribed to various lists but /not/ also
registered to the site. So, about 25k unique emails are registered. I
have no idea how many unique addresses are subscribed to all lists at
this point, though.
> It could be that this
> mailing list is not an accurate representation of the community, but I
> think it's the best thing we've got for discussions like this.
I think the lists on opensolaris.org (177 of them currently) represent
pretty well the community in the U.S. That's where the vast majority of
traffic and posts come from and it's not even close. However, there are
many people outside the U.S. who are just now getting into OpenSolaris
but who are not actively involved in this site and on these lists. The
language and cultural barriers are pretty big, as I'm learning, and
sadly many of the newcomers are somewhat put off by how aggressive some
of our lists are. And I have to agree with them at this point. We'll not
hear from many of these people for quite some time, so, for now, I think
what we see here is representative of those who choose to speak.
Jim
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 6, 2007 10:16 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Hey,
Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> I think the lists on opensolaris.org (177 of them currently) represent
> pretty well the community in the U.S. That's where the vast majority of
> traffic and posts come from and it's not even close. However, there are
> many people outside the U.S. who are just now getting into OpenSolaris
> but who are not actively involved in this site and on these lists. The
> language and cultural barriers are pretty big, as I'm learning, and
> sadly many of the newcomers are somewhat put off by how aggressive some
> of our lists are. And I have to agree with them at this point. We'll not
> hear from many of these people for quite some time, so, for now, I think
> what we see here is representative of those who choose to speak.
So this has been addressed in a number of other communities with somewhat mixed
results. Ubuntu have their 'Code of Conduct' policy
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
and arguably it has worked really well, and created a broad and effective
community (though that may well be a reflection of the distribution and its
goals). We've recently adopted a similar approach in GNOME, after much heated
discussion, but have yet to see any major significance of its introduction.
Perhaps something to consider for OpenSolaris.
Glynn
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From:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 12:31 AM
in response to: gman
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Glynn Foster wrote On 02/07/07 15:16,:
> Hey,
>
> Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
>>I think the lists on opensolaris.org (177 of them currently) represent
>>pretty well the community in the U.S. That's where the vast majority of
>>traffic and posts come from and it's not even close. However, there are
>>many people outside the U.S. who are just now getting into OpenSolaris
>>but who are not actively involved in this site and on these lists. The
>>language and cultural barriers are pretty big, as I'm learning, and
>>sadly many of the newcomers are somewhat put off by how aggressive some
>>of our lists are. And I have to agree with them at this point. We'll not
>>hear from many of these people for quite some time, so, for now, I think
>>what we see here is representative of those who choose to speak.
>
>
> So this has been addressed in a number of other communities with somewhat mixed
> results. Ubuntu have their 'Code of Conduct' policy
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
>
> and arguably it has worked really well, and created a broad and effective
> community (though that may well be a reflection of the distribution and its
> goals). We've recently adopted a similar approach in GNOME, after much heated
> discussion, but have yet to see any major significance of its introduction.
>
> Perhaps something to consider for OpenSolaris.
Before we opened, we took a crack at this with the OpenSolaris
Principles: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/
It's not a code of conduct, per say, but it attempts to outline what we
wanted to stand for back on June 14, 2005. Keith drafted it, by the way,
and I wish we'd follow it more. :) We, as a community, can certainly
consider a more prominent articulation of these principles in a new and
expanded document, I suppose, but that may be an issue for the OGB to
consider at this point since governance is coming to fruition. I'm
disappointed by some of the language used in the thread, but I also
don't know how far is too far.
The third bullet of the OpenSolaris Principles is most relevant here:
***
We will be respectful and honest. Developers and users have the right to
be treated with respect. We do not make ad hominem attacks, and we
encourage constructive criticism. Our commitment to civil discourse
allows new users and contributors with contrarian ideas an opportunity
to be heard without intimidation.
***
To me, this is /the/ issue in our discourse as a community. I'm happy we
got many substantive issues out on the table that were articulated
absolutely professionally (and those posts were obvious), but we also
attacked far too many people -- and entire groups and communities,
actually -- in the process (and those attacks were obvious as well). I'm
perfectly willing to accept that the aggressive behavior comes from a
minority of people, but unfortunately in many community-wide threads
like this they can carry the day.
I may be making more of this than is necessary. It's just my opinion.
Jim
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:36 PM
in response to: fvdl
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Frank Van Der Linden wrote:
> I really don't think it's fair to try to imply that the people opposed
> to dual licensing aren't representative because the discussion here has
> a limited number of participants, while at the same time trying to back
> up your pro-dual licensing stance by talking about vast numbers of
> people, none of which have shown up here, and who seem to be hard to
> find in general..
Ah, that'll be the vast missing GNU Hurd, then.
Sorry, I couldn't resist :-)
--
Alan Burlison
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:34 PM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps wrote:
>> They why haven't we heard anything at all from them directly on this
>> list?
>
> How about because no-one told them about it - right now they don't
> belong to this community. I notice the threads are getting publicity, I
> am sure some FSF folk will show up soon.
If they want us to take their license, wouldn't the *first* step to be
engage with the community? I'm puzzled that they haven't done this.
Anyway, I await with interest what they have to say.
> While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
> substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd suggest
> it's too early to come to that conclusion.
As with any democratic process, we won't know the answer until the votes
have been counted ;-)
--
Alan Burlison
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Posts:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:37 PM
in response to: alanbur
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 01:34, Alan Burlison wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>
>>> They why haven't we heard anything at all from them directly on
>>> this list?
>> How about because no-one told them about it - right now they don't
>> belong to this community. I notice the threads are getting
>> publicity, I am sure some FSF folk will show up soon.
>
> If they want us to take their license, wouldn't the *first* step to
> be engage with the community?
I don't think it was the FSF who explicitly started this debate here.
While of course they are eager advocates, they are (fortunately) not
omnipresent. I'm cutting them some slack and hoping we'll be able to
be welcoming.
>
>> While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
>> substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd suggest
>> it's too early to come to that conclusion.
>
> As with any democratic process, we won't know the answer until the
> votes have been counted ;-)
Totally agree. I'm glad I don't have to vote yet because I don't know
which way I would vote.
S.
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 2, 2007 5:42 PM
in response to: webmink
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Simon Phipps wrote:
>> As with any democratic process, we won't know the answer until the
>> votes have been counted ;-)
>
> Totally agree. I'm glad I don't have to vote yet because I don't know
> which way I would vote.
When this discussion started I was in the "Don't know" camp. However as
it has progressed I've learned much more about dual licensing, assembly
exceptions and so forth. I also know far more about what frustrates the
OpenSolaris community when it comes to trying to contribute. As a
result of this protracted discussion my vote would now be "No".
--
Alan Burlison
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 5, 2007 4:27 AM
in response to: alanbur
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Alan Burlison writes:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> >> As with any democratic process, we won't know the answer until the
> >> votes have been counted ;-)
> >
> > Totally agree. I'm glad I don't have to vote yet because I don't know
> > which way I would vote.
>
> When this discussion started I was in the "Don't know" camp. However as
> it has progressed I've learned much more about dual licensing, assembly
> exceptions and so forth. I also know far more about what frustrates the
> OpenSolaris community when it comes to trying to contribute. As a
> result of this protracted discussion my vote would now be "No".
When then discussion started, I would have been in the "yes" camp. As
a result of hearing about the forking issues and, much more
significantly, discussing the community fracturing issues, I'm certain
I'd be a "no" vote as well, at least for dual licensing.
If the discussion were about discarding the current license and
adopting a different one, that'd be different. I don't see the same
risk of long-term community damage from that, though there are almost
certainly other issues.
--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking <james dot d dot carlson at sun dot com>
Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677
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From:
India
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 5, 2007 6:46 AM
in response to: carlsonj
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James Carlson wrote:
> Alan Burlison writes:
>
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> As with any democratic process, we won't know the answer until the
>>>> votes have been counted ;-)
>>>>
>>> Totally agree. I'm glad I don't have to vote yet because I don't know
>>> which way I would vote.
>>>
>> When this discussion started I was in the "Don't know" camp. However as
>> it has progressed I've learned much more about dual licensing, assembly
>> exceptions and so forth. I also know far more about what frustrates the
>> OpenSolaris community when it comes to trying to contribute. As a
>> result of this protracted discussion my vote would now be "No".
>>
>
> When then discussion started, I would have been in the "yes" camp. As
> a result of hearing about the forking issues and, much more
> significantly, discussing the community fracturing issues, I'm certain
> I'd be a "no" vote as well, at least for dual licensing.
>
> If the discussion were about discarding the current license and
> adopting a different one, that'd be different. I don't see the same
> risk of long-term community damage from that, though there are almost
> certainly other issues.
>
I echo this opinion as well. Dual Licensing using two different
opensource licenses seems to me to be fraught with confusion,
complexity and forking issues. I have seen it's common use in
cases where there is one commercial and one opensource
license like Qt. But two opensource licenses seems to be
counterproductive so I'd vote "no".
I think the debate and analysis can also consider the case of
replacing the current CDDL with GPLv3+whatever exceptions.
Whether this makes any sense at all, the issues/problems in
doing so, any long term benefits etc. etc.
Regards,
Moinak.
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 7, 2007 6:35 AM
in response to: carlsonj
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>If the discussion were about discarding the current license and
>adopting a different one, that'd be different. I don't see the same
>risk of long-term community damage from that, though there are almost
>certainly other issues.
There's still a potential fork issue: the current code can continue
to be made avaiable under the CDDL, including improvements made
to it. You can't unlicense something once you've licensed it as
OpenSource. You can only add licenses (as the copyright owner/rights
holder)
Casper
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 9:29 AM
in response to: webmink
|
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On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 01:21:30AM +0000, Simon Phipps wrote:
> >It seems to me (as others have said) they they will gain far more
> >from Solaris going GPLv3 than we will, so it's hardly surprising
> >they are in favour, and by-and-large we aren't.
>
> While that's true of the ~15 people who have piped up, there are a
> substantial number of people we've not heard from yet. So I'd suggest
> it's too early to come to that conclusion.
I'm sure I'm not alone in substantially agreeing with Alan Burlison et al, but
not speaking up since I have nothing much to add to what they're saying.
regards,
john (speaking for myself)
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