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Replies:
9
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Last Post:
Feb 6, 2007 10:10 PM
by: gman
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What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:52 AM
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[No Body]
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Posts:
3,398
From:
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:52 AM
in response to: Guest
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>This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
>not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
>of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
Right; so I don't think the non-involvement in governance is anything
to go by; "those who can do, those who can't govern" (paraphrased)
Casper
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Posts:
689
From:
GB
Registered:
5/18/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 7:59 AM
in response to: casper
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On Feb 3, 2007, at 15:52, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
>> not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
>> of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
>
> Right; so I don't think the non-involvement in governance is anything
> to go by; "those who can do, those who can't govern" (paraphrased)
I disagree. By choosing to be part of a self-governing open source
community, participation in governance becomes a given. A community
this size working on a code-base this size and wanting to use a
democratic process doesn't get the option to ignore non-code issues.
And rule-by-the-loudest-voice is not democracy (even if it pretends
to be in certain countries). So once again I come back to the
question; what practical approach do we collectively propose instead?
The Constitution does not cover this yet.
S.
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Posts:
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 8:03 AM
in response to: webmink
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>
>On Feb 3, 2007, at 15:52, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>>> This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
>>> not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
>>> of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
>>
>> Right; so I don't think the non-involvement in governance is anything
>> to go by; "those who can do, those who can't govern" (paraphrased)
>
>I disagree. By choosing to be part of a self-governing open source
>community, participation in governance becomes a given. A community
>this size working on a code-base this size and wanting to use a
>democratic process doesn't get the option to ignore non-code issues.
>And rule-by-the-loudest-voice is not democracy (even if it pretends
>to be in certain countries). So once again I come back to the
>question; what practical approach do we collectively propose instead?
>The Constitution does not cover this yet.
Part of the governing has to do with how code is contributed and how
the "values of the community" are maintained; coders are interested in
that. But I can imagine that many people aren't really interested
in the nuts and bolts of the constitution until such point that it
hurts them.
Programmers just want to be left alone and work; they care about
governance when it interferes; not before.
Casper
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Posts:
316
From:
Milwaukee WI
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 8:34 AM
in response to: casper
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I think this all comes down to three key questions and 2 of which center around the kernel because, if its userland we don't need to dual license anything. This statement asks a few questions for us (opensolairs developers and mostly kernel developers to answer, and if you aren't a kernel developer or a future kernel developer or you don't even know C you most likely dont have the knowledge needed to answer the questions) and points out the feelings of the other side as stated publicly, the feelings that the other has side may not be the true or right and may be a major mistake, but its not our job to convince them they are wrong and we are right, and changing our license and vision is not going to change there opinion.
#1 is there anything that is GPLv3'd that we need, and what is it worth? The only things we want out of Linux is some header files that have some magic number and implementation details for drivers. A few thousand dollars donated to the right team and I'm pretty sure this can be reverse engineered again.
#2 is there anything that that a GPLv3 kernel wants that we have? This is the only people that dual licensing helps. Linux can't benefit because its a GPLv2 OS. Linus the leader of Linux has come out and said we don't want anything that is in Solaris. A number of core
Linux developers have said we can't use ZFS because of the way its implemented. Even more Linux developers have decided that they are doing a better DTrace in the form of Systemtap, so they wont want DTrace. Zones and SMF is more of a distribution type problem, so is too big of a headache for Linux to want anyway so will be shrugged off as useless.
#3. Is this all just marketing ploy to hopefully get 10,000 developers to sign on to OpenSolaris and for wall street to say "YEAH." Wall street doesn't understand the licensing mess so doesn't have a clue that this is going to cause short term chaos of a licensing war, and long term effect of extra baggage on OpenSolaris.
Linux community is going to see OpenSolaris as trying to be GPLv3 as a marketing ploy which it really is, they will also see this as weekness since we had to added there license whether or not its useful to them or not or us for that matter. So as you can pretty much sense by this I think that the licensing of OpenSolaris should not change, and that if it changes it will only hurt the OpenSolaris and progress. Perhaps my opinion will change if the top 10 Linux kernel coders come out and ask for OpenSolaris to be GPL'd they intend to use it and we want to merge Linux with it and are willing to charge our license to work with you. As of now Linux kernel coders don't care and are locked into there current license path that is different from ours.
James Dickens uadmin.blogspot.comOn 2/3/07, Casper.***@sun.com
<Casper.***@sun.com> wrote:
>This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
>not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
>of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
Right; so I don't think the non-involvement in governance is anything
to go by; "those who can do, those who can't govern" (paraphrased)
Casper
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 12:09 PM
in response to: jamesd
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"James Dickens" <jamesd dot wi at gmail dot com> wrote:
> don't want anything that is in Solaris. A number of core
> Linux developers have said we can't use ZFS because of the way its
> implemented. Even more Linux developers have decided that they are doing a
This is true. The problem is that Linux does not use the VFS interface
internally, but as Linux did implement NFS it should not be impossible.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
316
From:
Milwaukee WI
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 12:24 PM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd:
Re: GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 1:43 PM
in response to: jamesd
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"James Dickens" <jamesd dot wi at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > > don't want anything that is in Solaris. A number of core
> > > Linux developers have said we can't use ZFS because of the way its
> > > implemented. Even more Linux developers have decided that they are doing
> > a
> >
> > This is true. The problem is that Linux does not use the VFS interface
> > internally, but as Linux did implement NFS it should not be impossible.
>
>
> but you are not implying we should bend over and kiss their rearends and beg
> them to use our stuff when they obviously don't want too?
I believe that we should make clear that nobody from Sun likes to prevent
Linux to take ZFS or Dtrace and that there is no license that prevents this
from hapening.
Then we could lean back and see what's going to happen. The signal is the same
as (or even better than) dual licensing with GPLv3 abd it does not have the
pitfall of dual licensing.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 3, 2007 9:51 AM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> This is a key difficulty. Almost all people are here for the code,
>> not for the governance. But when any community grows beyond the size
>> of a circle of friends, there's a responsibility for governance.
>
> Right; so I don't think the non-involvement in governance is anything
> to go by; "those who can do, those who can't govern" (paraphrased)
Not sure I agree with that quote since it doesn't leave much room for
me. :) And I can think of many people who are quietly doing good work
that doesn't involve coding or governance or so-called leadership in any
way but who still desire to be part of an open community.
Jim
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Posts:
1,901
From:
NZ
Registered:
6/16/05
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Re: What does OpenSolaris Success look like to you? (was Re: [Fwd: Re:
GPLv3?])
Posted:
Feb 6, 2007 10:10 PM
in response to: Guest
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Hey,
Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Feb 3, 2007, at 14:46, Peter Tribble wrote:
>> I'm fairly sure that a fl****est on a mailing list isn't the right way.
>> Perhaps it's a necessary step, but I don't think it's conducive to
>> substantive discussions.
>>
>
> I would be pleased if it didn't happen like it has here. There are a few
> other lists I am on (notably at Apache) where controversy does not
> immediately lead to a flame-war (though no-one hold back from
> discussion). But I think it has to be expected, tolerated and perhaps
> welcomed as a sign of an open community. I'm hopeful the passion will
> soon get channelled to positive discussion (of both the pros and cons).
In trying to summarize this **** thread for the weekly news, I've learned a few
things -
o People *really* need to learn how to structure their arguments in
a concise and easily understood manner
o When a point has been made, you don't necessarily keep having to
make it every time you write
o Getting into the habit of replying to every thread possible isn't
helpful at all
(but you know all of this, right?)
I'm sure I'm missing a whole bunch of arguments in the thread, simply because of
people's inability to express themselves better. Maybe Apache is better in this
regard and have learned some lessons from past discussions.
Glynn
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