Posts:
3,835
From:
JP
Registered:
4/6/05
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Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 6:51 PM
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/sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
User Group communities/
hey ...
I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
Agree? Disagree?
Jim
--
Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
--
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Re: [ug-discuss] Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 7:24 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Agree
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From:
India
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 8:02 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Agree.
~Joe
On 06-Jun-07, at 7:21 AM, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing
> and User Group communities/
>
>
> hey ...
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User
> Group Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>
> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail
> list can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved
> in this project since we stand to benefit from its potential
> success. I've suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/
> 000819.html
>
> Agree? Disagree?
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
> --
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
--------------------------------
Joe G (Joseph George)
Joe dot G at Sun dot COM
http://www.blogs.sun.com/josephgeorge
http://www.belenix.org
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 8:21 PM
in response to: jimgris
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Agree.
-Terri Molini
Jim Grisanzio wrote:
/sending to
both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and User Group
communities/
hey ...
I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
Agree? Disagree?
Jim
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Terri Molini
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Global Communications
408/404-4976 office/fax; x6-9968
408/406-9021 mobile
IM: tmolini</pre>
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 9:19 PM
in response to: jimgris
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I'm not a core contributor to either community, so my vote is
meaningless - but as long as the distribution doesn't call itself
"OpenSolaris" as has been tossed around, I agree in principle.
The goals and objectives of the project are worthy and good (for
whatever my opinion is worth), I'm just wary of something that will
attempt to overload and redefine what "OpenSolaris" is.
cheers,
steve
On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:51:37AM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
> User Group communities/
>
>
> hey ...
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>
> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>
> Agree? Disagree?
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
> --
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Posts:
221
From:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
5/20/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 1:11 AM
in response to: stevel
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I agree on sponsoring.
Concerning nomenclature: if I understand concerns about using the name
"OpenSolaris" as part / all of the name of a disto, they are 2-fold:
i. Deprecates (unfairly) other OpenSolaris distros, and the excellent
work which has gone into creating them
ii. Redefines what OpenSolaris is, from a code base and community to
code base, community and a bootable OS, to the point where the name
"OpenSolaris" is loaded with too much meaning.
From my point of view, if we are talking about attracting users, the
second is not a concern.
While we may have consistently said that OpenSolaris is not a bootable
operating system, but a code base and a community, that does not mean
that this could not or should not change. Further, the expectation
remains that there be a concise answer to the question, "how do I boot
OpenSolaris?".
For that reason I am more concerned about the status of other distros.
Patrick
Stephen Lau wrote:
> I'm not a core contributor to either community, so my vote is
> meaningless - but as long as the distribution doesn't call itself
> "OpenSolaris" as has been tossed around, I agree in principle.
>
> The goals and objectives of the project are worthy and good (for
> whatever my opinion is worth), I'm just wary of something that will
> attempt to overload and redefine what "OpenSolaris" is.
>
> cheers,
> steve
>
> On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:51:37AM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
>> User Group communities/
>>
>>
>> hey ...
>>
>> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
>> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>>
>> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
>> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
>> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
>> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>>
>> Agree? Disagree?
>>
>> Jim
>> --
>> Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
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Posts:
5,504
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:20 AM
in response to: patrickf
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Patrick Finch wrote:
> I agree on sponsoring.
>
> Concerning nomenclature: if I understand concerns about using the name
> "OpenSolaris" as part / all of the name of a disto, they are 2-fold:
>
> i. Deprecates (unfairly) other OpenSolaris distros, and the excellent
> work which has gone into creating them
>
> ii. Redefines what OpenSolaris is, from a code base and community to
> code base, community and a bootable OS, to the point where the name
> "OpenSolaris" is loaded with too much meaning.
iii. Makes it clear that this distro is specially blessed by Sun, and
not a pure community-driven project, since only Sun has the ability to
grant use of the OpenSolaris trademark this way.
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Posts:
221
From:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
5/20/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:39 AM
in response to: alanc
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Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
Sun" mutually exclusive?
Patrick
Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Patrick Finch wrote:
>> I agree on sponsoring.
>>
>> Concerning nomenclature: if I understand concerns about using the name
>> "OpenSolaris" as part / all of the name of a disto, they are 2-fold:
>>
>> i. Deprecates (unfairly) other OpenSolaris distros, and the excellent
>> work which has gone into creating them
>>
>> ii. Redefines what OpenSolaris is, from a code base and community to
>> code base, community and a bootable OS, to the point where the name
>> "OpenSolaris" is loaded with too much meaning.
>
> iii. Makes it clear that this distro is specially blessed by Sun, and
> not a pure community-driven project, since only Sun has the ability to
> grant use of the OpenSolaris trademark this way.
>
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Posts:
534
From:
CN
Registered:
6/14/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:58 AM
in response to: patrickf
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Patrick Finch a écrit :
> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
> Sun" mutually exclusive?
Some rewriting would be needed there:
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/
«We are independent. Decisions within the project are made independently
from those concerning Sun's business. Sun's management controls the
business aspects of the Solaris product, but will not exert undue
influence within the OpenSolaris community.»
«The main difference between the OpenSolaris project and the Solaris
Operating System is that the OpenSolaris project does not provide an
end-user product or complete distribution.»
I'm not against translating it again. But since this is quite the
definition of what OpenSolaris *is*, some thinking is needed there
before starting such a distro.
Laurent
--
/ Leader de Projet & Communauté | I'm working, but not speaking for
\ I18N/L10N http://opensolaris.org | Bull Services http://www.bull.com
/ FOSUG http://guses.org |
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:12 AM
in response to: patrickf
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Not completely, but they are somewhat in the sense that no other "pure
community driven project" (e.g.: Belenix, Nexenta, Schillix, Martux,
etc.) can call themselves "OpenSolaris" the same way Indiana can.
So in that respect, Indiana would have been 'specially blessed' (not
necessarily 'especially blessed')
cheers,
steve
Patrick Finch wrote:
> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
> Sun" mutually exclusive?
>
> Patrick
>
>
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>> I agree on sponsoring.
>>>
>>> Concerning nomenclature: if I understand concerns about using the
>>> name "OpenSolaris" as part / all of the name of a disto, they are
>>> 2-fold:
>>>
>>> i. Deprecates (unfairly) other OpenSolaris distros, and the excellent
>>> work which has gone into creating them
>>>
>>> ii. Redefines what OpenSolaris is, from a code base and community to
>>> code base, community and a bootable OS, to the point where the name
>>> "OpenSolaris" is loaded with too much meaning.
>>
>> iii. Makes it clear that this distro is specially blessed by Sun, and
>> not a pure community-driven project, since only Sun has the ability to
>> grant use of the OpenSolaris trademark this way.
>>
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:18 AM
in response to: patrickf
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Patrick Finch wrote:
> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by Sun"
> mutually exclusive?
My take is that Alan's simply saying that in _this_ case (which is to say,
the direction the Indiana project appears to be headed) they are both true[1].
So no, definitely not, they don't have to be mututally exclusive.
Eric
1. And FWIW, I agree: http://blogs.sun.com/eric_boutilier/entry/dear_ian#comments
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:29 AM
in response to: patrickf
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Patrick Finch wrote:
> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
> Sun" mutually exclusive?
They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
pushing for this project.
Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that people
think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Posts:
221
From:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
5/20/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:43 AM
in response to: alanc
|
|
Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Patrick Finch wrote:
>> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
>> Sun" mutually exclusive?
>
> They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
> asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
> denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
> pushing for this project.
>
> Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that
> people
> think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
>
Understood - you're right that there is an obvious asymmetry in the
relationship. My point was just that naming a distro "OpenSolaris"
wouldn't prevent it from being driven purely within the community.
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 9:01 AM
in response to: patrickf
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Patrick Finch wrote:
>
>
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
>>> Sun" mutually exclusive?
>>
>> They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
>> asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
>> denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
>> pushing for this project.
>>
>> Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that
>> people
>> think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
>>
>
> Understood - you're right that there is an obvious asymmetry in the
> relationship. My point was just that naming a distro "OpenSolaris" wouldn't
> prevent it from being driven purely within the community.
Excellent point (misconceptions abound in that regard).
Eric
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 8:04 AM
in response to: alanc
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|
Alan Coopersmith <alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com> wrote:
> Patrick Finch wrote:
> > Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
> > Sun" mutually exclusive?
>
> They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
> asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
> denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
> pushing for this project.
>
> Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that people
> think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
If Sun would name a distro "opensolaris" this would cause a big confusion
for many people.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 8:26 AM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
|
|
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith <alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com> wrote:
>
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
>>> Sun" mutually exclusive?
>>
>> They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
>> asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
>> denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
>> pushing for this project.
>>
>> Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that people
>> think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
>
> If Sun would name a distro "opensolaris" this would cause a big confusion
> for many people.
I totally agree, however, IMO, if the OpenSolaris Community were to name a
distro OpenSolaris, it would not cause much confusion. My personal
interpretation[1] of that kind of scenario is that we (the OpenSolaris
Community) could do the following:
- Follow the group voting procedures documented in the constitution.
- Subsequently, if there is a positive result from the vote, collaborate
with Sun (the Software Marketing group would be my guess) on terms. That
is, for the specific use of the word OpenSolaris that was voted on.
Thoughts anyone?
Eric
1. Which is to say, not Sun's interpretation nor anyone else's.
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Posts:
221
From:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
5/20/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 11:59 AM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
|
|
Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
"OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
confusing people should disqualify the idea.
Patrick
Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith <alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com> wrote:
>
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>> Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
>>> Sun" mutually exclusive?
>> They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
>> asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have been
>> denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive is
>> pushing for this project.
>>
>> Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that people
>> think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
>
> If Sun would name a distro "opensolaris" this would cause a big confusion
> for many people.
>
> Jörg
>
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:07 PM
in response to: patrickf
|
|
Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
> confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>
> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
diesel oil product?
There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
is not a product name but the name for a software base.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
651
From:
Registered:
5/25/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:21 PM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
|
|
Joerg Schilling wrote:
<pre wrap="">Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
"OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
confusing people should disqualify the idea.
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
diesel oil product?
</pre>
I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
(and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
practice and expected.
<pre wrap="">
There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
is not a product name but the name for a software base.
Jörg
</pre>
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Posts:
1,156
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:33 PM
in response to: sarad
|
|
Sara Dornsife wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
>>> confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>
>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>
>>
>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>> diesel oil product?
>>
>
> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
> practice and expected.
And when you go to Sun's Solaris Express page and download Solaris
Express, you get Solaris Express. And when you go to Belenix's page and
download Belenix, you get Belenix.
... the better analogy (for our current situation) is you go to
http://www.linux.org
Do you get Linux? No, you get information about Linux with pointers to
various distributions of Linux.
... not unlike what you get at opensolaris.org.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:44 PM
in response to: sarad
|
|
Hi Sara,
Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go to
fedora web site http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
and read about the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense.
This is not the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I
get information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message to
'stay tuned'.
Will we be fixing that? Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
Under what conditions? Will there be guidelines? How about a mailing
list for questions? These details and information about how any of these
rules are going to change in support of the new effort is the critical
information that we need to provide.
Thanks,
Michelle
Sara Dornsife wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
>>> confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>
>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>
>>
>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>> diesel oil product?
>>
>
> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
> practice and expected.
>
>> There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
>> is not a product name but the name for a software base.
>>
>> Jörg
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
_______________________________________________
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Simon Phipps
Simon.Phipps@Sun.COM
|
|
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:08 PM
in response to: michelle
|
|
|
|
On Jun 13, 2007, at 21:44, michelle olson wrote:
> Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I
> go to fedora web site http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/
> TrademarkGuidelines and read about the trademark usage, I get
> information that makes sense. This is not the case when I go to
> http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I get information that is out
> of date, promises not kept and a message to 'stay tuned'.
The content of the page appears to my eyes to be correct and to be in-
sync with the Constitution, and the last-updated date in March is old
but not ancient. I believe you are being too harsh. We certainly do
need answers from Sun. In the current context of change we may need
some questions /to/ Sun first, though.
> Will we be fixing that? Will parties be authorized to use the
> trademark? Under what conditions? Will there be guidelines? How
> about a mailing list for questions? These details and information
> about how any of these rules are going to change in support of the
> new effort is the critical information that we need to provide.
Great questions. But since the "new effort" is too new to have any
plans yet, it's premature to expect this page to be decided in
advance of it. I can't get over the way folk keep assuming Sun is
orchestrating a behind-the scenes game and then by turns criticise
Sun for either doing so or for failing to do so.
S.
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Posts:
45
From:
DE
Registered:
9/29/06
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana / OT
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:17 PM
in response to: michelle
|
|
Hi Sara, Michelle,
Am 13.06.07 22:44, michelle olson schrieb:
> Hi Sara,
>
> Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go to
> fedora web site http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
> and read about the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense.
> This is not the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I
> get information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message to
> 'stay tuned'.
>
> Will we be fixing that? Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
> Under what conditions? Will there be guidelines? How about a mailing
> list for questions? These details and information about how any of these
> rules are going to change in support of the new effort is the critical
> information that we need to provide.
It's kind of off topic but since you and Sara seems to be reading this: if
you install SXDE/SXCR you get all over the place Solaris, not OpenSolaris
logos. That is also inconsistent and it is probably confusing everybody
outside Sun.
If you install the community distribution OpenSuse you will see
logos/coporate look and feel of the community distribution Opensuse, but
not of Novell's commercial counter part SLED/SLES. Same with Fedora/RHEL.
Isn't this the way it should be?
Cheers,
Dirk
PS: RHEL= Red Hat Enterprise Linux
SLES/D= Suse Enterprise Server/Desktop
> Thanks,
> Michelle
>
> Sara Dornsife wrote:
>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
>>>> the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>>
>>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>>> diesel oil product?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
>> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
>> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
>> practice and expected.
>>
>>> There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
>>> is not a product name but the name for a software base.
>>>
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
> _______________________________________________
> ug-discuss mailing list
> ug-discuss at opensolaris dot org
--
Dirk Wetter @ Dr. Wetter IT-Consulting http://drwetter.org
Beratung IT-Sicherheit + Open Source
Key fingerprint = 2AD6 BE0F 9863 C82D 21B3 64E5 C967 34D8 11B7 C62F
-
Found core file older than 7 days: /usr/share/man/man5/core.5.gz
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From:
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Registered:
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana / OT
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:39 PM
in response to: dirkw
|
|
Dirk Wetter wrote:
> Hi Sara, Michelle,
>
> Am 13.06.07 22:44, michelle olson schrieb:
>> Hi Sara,
>>
>> Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go to
>> fedora web site http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>> and read about the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense.
>> This is not the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I
>> get information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message to
>> 'stay tuned'.
>>
>> Will we be fixing that? Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
>> Under what conditions? Will there be guidelines? How about a mailing
>> list for questions? These details and information about how any of these
>> rules are going to change in support of the new effort is the critical
>> information that we need to provide.
>
> It's kind of off topic but since you and Sara seems to be reading this: if
> you install SXDE/SXCR you get all over the place Solaris, not OpenSolaris
> logos. That is also inconsistent and it is probably confusing everybody
> outside Sun.
That's perfectly reasonable. Solaris is Sun's distribution of OpenSolaris.
Sun does not (currently) ship a binary distribution called OpenSolaris.
> If you install the community distribution OpenSuse you will see
> logos/coporate look and feel of the community distribution Opensuse, but
> not of Novell's commercial counter part SLED/SLES. Same with Fedora/RHEL.
>
> Isn't this the way it should be?
10 PRINT "OpenSolaris is not a distribution."
20 GOTO 10
:)
cheers,
steve
(woohoo... I haven't written BASIC in years)
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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From:
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Registered:
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana / OT
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:40 PM
in response to: dirkw
|
|
On 13/06/07, Dirk Wetter <dirk dot wetter at drwetter dot org> wrote:
> Hi Sara, Michelle,
>
> Am 13.06.07 22:44, michelle olson schrieb:
> > Hi Sara,
> >
> > Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go to
> > fedora web site http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
> > and read about the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense.
> > This is not the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I
> > get information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message to
> > 'stay tuned'.
> >
> > Will we be fixing that? Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
> > Under what conditions? Will there be guidelines? How about a mailing
> > list for questions? These details and information about how any of these
> > rules are going to change in support of the new effort is the critical
> > information that we need to provide.
>
> It's kind of off topic but since you and Sara seems to be reading this: if
> you install SXDE/SXCR you get all over the place Solaris, not OpenSolaris
> logos. That is also inconsistent and it is probably confusing everybody
> outside Sun.
>
> If you install the community distribution OpenSuse you will see
> logos/coporate look and feel of the community distribution Opensuse, but
> not of Novell's commercial counter part SLED/SLES. Same with Fedora/RHEL.
>
> Isn't this the way it should be?
No, since at this point, Solaris Express is still a Sun product. And
in the case of SXDE, one you can buy support from Sun for.
Fedora, in contrast, is not something you can buy support for from
RedHat, and is purposefully distanced from it.
The only way what you suggest will work is if we actually have an
OpenSolaris distribution.
--
"Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
binarycrusader at gmail dot com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/
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Posts:
651
From:
Registered:
5/25/05
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana / OT
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:46 PM
in response to: swalker
|
|
> No, since at this point, Solaris Express is still a Sun product. And
> in the case of SXDE, one you can buy support from Sun for.
>
> Fedora, in contrast, is not something you can buy support for from
> RedHat, and is purposefully distanced from it.
>
> The only way what you suggest will work is if we actually have an
> OpenSolaris distribution.
But he is pointing out the full scope of the TM dilemma we need to
resolve. I was thinking about where (if anywhere at all) the OpenSolaris
TM would appear in any distro. If we are going to go ask Sun for broader
usage rights to have the name for a distribution, we should outline
every use possible.
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651
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Registered:
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|
Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana / OT
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:43 PM
in response to: dirkw
|
|
<pre wrap="">
It's kind of off topic but since you and Sara seems to be reading this: if
you install SXDE/SXCR you get all over the place Solaris, not OpenSolaris
logos. That is also inconsistent and it is probably confusing everybody
outside Sun.
If you install the community distribution OpenSuse you will see
logos/coporate look and feel of the community distribution Opensuse, but
not of Novell's commercial counter part SLED/SLES. Same with Fedora/RHEL.
Isn't this the way it should be?
</pre>
Not off topic actually as it speaks to the branding of the Sun
distribution. This goes to the TM questions that Michelle was asking. I
don't think we have answers yet, but where the OpenSolaris TM can and
should be used are questions that we should all be asking. You are
illustrating one of the places TMs are used.
<pre wrap="">
Cheers,
Dirk
PS: RHEL= Red Hat Enterprise Linux
SLES/D= Suse Enterprise Server/Desktop
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Thanks,
Michelle
Sara Dornsife wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Joerg Schilling wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
"OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
confusing people should disqualify the idea.
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
diesel oil product?
</pre>
<pre wrap="">I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
(and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
practice and expected.
</pre>
<pre wrap="">There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
is not a product name but the name for a software base.
Jörg
</pre>
<pre wrap="">-------------------------------------------------------------------- ----
_______________________________________________
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opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
</pre>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
ug-discuss mailing list
ug-discuss at opensolaris dot org
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
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Posts:
651
From:
Registered:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 2:18 PM
in response to: michelle
|
|
michelle olson wrote:
> Hi Sara,
>
> Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go
> to fedora web site
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines and read about
> the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense. This is not
> the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I get
> information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message to
> 'stay tuned'.
>
> Will we be fixing that?
Yes
> Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
To a point. The TM will always be protected. Not only because it belongs
to Sun, but because it is the right thing to do.
> Under what conditions?
Let's open that up. I can act as an intermediary with Sun on this. What
are we looking for?
> Will there be guidelines?
Definitely. I will reread the Fedora ones for a baseline. If there are
any other sources anyone thinks are good, I'd be happy to reference them
as well.
> How about a mailing list for questions?
That's a great idea. The marketing community can sponsor.
Trademarks at opensolaris dot org?
> These details and information about how any of these rules are going
> to change in support of the new effort is the critical information
> that we need to provide.
Agreed
>
> Thanks,
> Michelle
>
> Sara Dornsife wrote:
>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing
>>>> with the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>>
>>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk
>>>> of confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>>> diesel oil product?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
>> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
>> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
>> practice and expected.
>>
>>> There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
>>> is not a product name but the name for a software base.
>>>
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
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Posts:
1,695
From:
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Registered:
4/28/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 3:06 PM
in response to: sarad
|
|
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Sara Dornsife wrote:
> michelle olson wrote:
> >
> > Under what conditions?
> >
>
> Let's open that up. I can act as an intermediary with Sun on this. What are
> we looking for? ..
Thanks Sara. In addition to exploring general usage guidelines, I'd like to
suggest we speculate on the following (from a post made earlier today).
This scenario, by contrast, would involve a specific-use kind of
clearance. --Eric
_______________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
From: Eric Boutilier
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith <alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com> wrote:
>
> > Patrick Finch wrote:
> > > Are being a "pure community driven project" and "especially blessed by
> > > Sun" mutually exclusive?
> >
> > They have been in the past - if Schillix, Belenix, Martux or Nexenta had
> > asked to be able to use the OpenSolaris name, they would likely have
> > been
> > denied. That it's an option now seems to be because a Sun executive
> > is
> > pushing for this project.
> >
> > Is that good or bad? I don't know - but it's one of the issues that
> > people
> > think about when naming a distro "OpenSolaris".
>
> If Sun would name a distro "opensolaris" this would cause a big confusion
> for many people.
I totally agree, however, IMO, if the OpenSolaris Community were to name a
distro OpenSolaris, it would not cause much confusion. My personal
interpretation[1] of that kind of scenario is that we (the OpenSolaris
Community) could do the following:
- Follow the group voting procedures documented in the constitution.
- Subsequently, if there is a positive result from the vote, collaborate
with Sun (the Software Marketing group would be my guess) on terms. That
is, for the specific use of the word OpenSolaris that was voted on.
...
Eric
1. Which is to say, not Sun's interpretation nor anyone else's.
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 4:01 PM
in response to: sarad
|
|
Hi,
Sara Dornsife wrote:
> michelle olson wrote:
>> Hi Sara,
>>
>> Your common practice is fine, let's take it a step further. When I go
>> to fedora web site
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines and read
>> about the trademark usage, I get information that makes sense. This
>> is not the case when I go to http://opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ I
>> get information that is out of date, promises not kept and a message
>> to 'stay tuned'.
>>
>> Will we be fixing that?
>
> Yes
Cool, I know we have fan buttons, we could at least update that with a
live link now, I think.
>
>> Will parties be authorized to use the trademark?
>
> To a point. The TM will always be protected. Not only because it
> belongs to Sun, but because it is the right thing to do.
Can you be any more specific about 'to a point'? If you can't elaborate
today, that is fine, I think it is important to just let folks know that
there will be some new opportunity to use the trademark if that is coming.
>
>> Under what conditions?
>
> Let's open that up. I can act as an intermediary with Sun on this.
> What are we looking for?
Awesome, I really appreciate your help to do this. For my part, I think
folks today who write documents in support of OpenSolaris can title them
'XYZ Debugging Guide for the OpenSolaris Project'. It would be nice if
they could put the actual, colorful, wordmark on the document. This is
just an example, tons of folks have asked me for branded templates for
content they write to support the project, but I haven't provided that
because of the trademark issue.
For another case, I think it would be nice incentive for folks to
contribute to the OpenSolaris distribution if they knew that they
themselves could use the trademark to promote their own work. Maybe that
is crazy-talk, but that is really what I've been thinking about. So,
maybe core contributors get rights to use?...back to the dang
contributor list! :)
>
>> Will there be guidelines?
>
> Definitely. I will reread the Fedora ones for a baseline. If there are
> any other sources anyone thinks are good, I'd be happy to reference
> them as well.
Great, thanks. Guidelines for the kinds of cases above (writing a
document, passing out distro copies) that were global for opensolaris
would be great. I'm happy to help out with reviews of the document.
>
>> How about a mailing list for questions?
>
> That's a great idea. The marketing community can sponsor.
> Trademarks at opensolaris dot org?
Sounds good to me. I think we just need to request this from website
discuss nowadays.
>
>> These details and information about how any of these rules are going
>> to change in support of the new effort is the critical information
>> that we need to provide.
>
> Agreed
Cool.
-Michelle
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michelle
>>
>> Sara Dornsife wrote:
>>> Joerg Schilling wrote:
>>>> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing
>>>>> with the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk
>>>>> of confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>>>> diesel oil product?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
>>> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or
>>> SugarCRM (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It
>>> is common practice and expected.
>>>
>>>> There are other similar cases. People just did learn that
>>>> "OpenSolaris"
>>>> is not a product name but the name for a software base.
>>>>
>>>> Jörg
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>>
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Joerg Schilling
Joerg.Schilling@foku...
|
|
|
|
Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 14, 2007 2:35 AM
in response to: sarad
|
|
Sara Dornsife <Sara dot Dornsife at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> > Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
> > diesel oil product?
> >
>
> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
> practice and expected.
If there is only one single product from a specific source, this is no problem.
If the differences are very small or if only a single variant exists for
a distro (as e.g. with OpenOffice) things are easy. OpenSolaris is different.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 14, 2007 2:56 AM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Sara Dornsife <Sara dot Dornsife at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
>>> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
>>> diesel oil product?
>>>
>> I don't know about that, but I do know that when I go to Fedora or
>> Ubuntu or OpenOffice or Netbeans or Eclipse or PostgreSQL or SugarCRM
>> (and so on), I do download something by the same name. It is common
>> practice and expected.
>
> If there is only one single product from a specific source, this is no problem.
> If the differences are very small or if only a single variant exists for
> a distro (as e.g. with OpenOffice) things are easy. OpenSolaris is different.
>
> Jörg
>
That's incorrect about OpenOffice.org
OpenOffice.org has guidelines for different distributions, (some, but
not all of which are ports or localisations) at
http://distribution.openoffice.org/
So OpenOffice.org is the community, the code base, its own distribution
and has many other distributions, including OxygenOffice Professional,
NeoOffice, 602Office, Jambo OpenOffice, RomanianOffice, RedOffice etc.
Patrick
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:32 PM
in response to: Joerg Schilling
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Patrick Finch <Patrick dot Finch at Sun dot COM> wrote:
>
>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
>> confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>
>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>
> Do you like to recommend to use the name "diesel" as brand name for
> diesel oil product?
>
> There are other similar cases. People just did learn that "OpenSolaris"
> is not a product name but the name for a software base.
... but people *haven't* learned that OpenSolaris is not a product name.
Look how many messages continue to come into opensolaris-discuss that
say things like "I just installed OpenSolaris V10".
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:31 PM
in response to: patrickf
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Patrick Finch wrote:
> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the
> confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>
> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
Well it depends. There seems to be a disconnect across the Sun
corporation as to *what* OpenSolaris is... which is partially what has
led to the current confusion as to what OpenSolaris is.
Ignoring the trademark issue aside for now, if you changed what
OpenSolaris is (i.e.: now it's a whizzy distribution), but you don't
change the messaging: then it *WILL* still be confusing to people. If
you change what OpenSolaris is, but you unify the messaging coming out
of Sun as to what OpenSolaris is so that we're all behind it 100%, then
I think we'll be fine (once we get over the initial confusion of switching)
Sorry did that make sense?
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:36 PM
in response to: stevel
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Stephen Lau wrote:
> Patrick Finch wrote:
>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
>> the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>
>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>
> Well it depends. There seems to be a disconnect across the Sun
> corporation as to *what* OpenSolaris is...
Which is why I keep seeing banner ads that say "Solaris 10: Free and
Open Source" that Sun buys on various websites to add to the confusion.
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:40 PM
in response to: alanc
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Stephen Lau wrote:
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
>>> the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>
>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>
>> Well it depends. There seems to be a disconnect across the Sun
>> corporation as to *what* OpenSolaris is...
>
> Which is why I keep seeing banner ads that say "Solaris 10: Free and
> Open Source" that Sun buys on various websites to add to the confusion.
>
Yup, the disconnect spans Sun in its entirety: executives, engineering,
marketing, management.
:(
-steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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From:
JP
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 11:39 PM
in response to: alanc
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Stephen Lau wrote:
>
>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>
>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
>>> the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>
>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>
>>
>> Well it depends. There seems to be a disconnect across the Sun
>> corporation as to *what* OpenSolaris is...
>
>
> Which is why I keep seeing banner ads that say "Solaris 10: Free and
> Open Source" that Sun buys on various websites to add to the confusion.
From a communications perspective, explaining OpenSolaris is extremely
challenging when you consider all the diverse audiences around the
world: customers and partners, competitors, governments, press and
analysts, developers, administrators, users, university
students/professors, etc. The fact that Sun keeps saying that "Solaris"
is open source doesn't help, but I can really sympathize with that since
in some markets it actually makes good sense to position the product
that way.
Whenever I talk to people I always say that Solaris is Sun's supported
binary product. It's closed. OpenSolaris is a subset of the source code
for Solaris. It's open. At that level it's not confusing at all. It gets
confusing when we try to make it out to be more than it is and explain
all that across all audiences in all markets simultaneously. If Indy can
solve that problem, cool. I'm all for it. I doubt that it can in the
short term, though. I think this will take years to clear up, and I
don't see any problem with that whatsoever.
Jim
--
Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 14, 2007 2:01 AM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> Stephen Lau wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some confusion for some people perhaps, but it is possible to
>>>> communicate a change. For the last 2 years I have been dealing with
>>>> the confusion that "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS.
>>>>
>>>> I can understand that there might be objections to naming a distro
>>>> "OpenSolaris" for other reasons, but I don't accept that the risk of
>>>> confusing people should disqualify the idea.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well it depends. There seems to be a disconnect across the Sun
>>> corporation as to *what* OpenSolaris is...
>>
>>
>> Which is why I keep seeing banner ads that say "Solaris 10: Free and
>> Open Source" that Sun buys on various websites to add to the confusion.
>
>
> From a communications perspective, explaining OpenSolaris is extremely
> challenging when you consider all the diverse audiences around the
> world: customers and partners, competitors, governments, press and
> analysts, developers, administrators, users, university
> students/professors, etc. The fact that Sun keeps saying that "Solaris"
> is open source doesn't help, but I can really sympathize with that since
> in some markets it actually makes good sense to position the product
> that way.
It does, and am guilty of this sometimes, as Sun's competitors continue
to position Solaris as entirely proprietary.
> Whenever I talk to people I always say that Solaris is Sun's supported
> binary product. It's closed. OpenSolaris is a subset of the source code
> for Solaris. It's open. At that level it's not confusing at all. It gets
> confusing when we try to make it out to be more than it is and explain
> all that across all audiences in all markets simultaneously. If Indy can
> solve that problem, cool. I'm all for it. I doubt that it can in the
> short term, though. I think this will take years to clear up, and I
> don't see any problem with that whatsoever.
Yes, that is very a good way to clarify what OpenSolaris is. Beyond the
semantic challenge though, there are a lot of people out there who are
interested in trying this technology out, and are looking for a
community: if I try a Linux distro I look to its community for help.
The message we risk giving to potential users is that the OpenSolaris
community is not the place for them.
Patrick
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Posts:
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From:
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Describing OpenSolaris (was: Re: Sponsor Project
Indiana)
Posted:
Jun 14, 2007 3:09 AM
in response to: jimgris
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On Jun 14, 2007, at 07:39, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> From a communications perspective, explaining OpenSolaris is
> extremely challenging when you consider all the diverse audiences
> around the world: customers and partners, competitors, governments,
> press and analysts, developers, administrators, users, university
> students/professors, etc.
It's overwhelmingly challenging since most people outside our
community really don't have the background to make the distinction.
People refer to RHEL as "open source" when in fact it contains things
that are not. In common discussion, Solaris /is/ "open source" since
the source code that made a large part of it is now under a Free
license.
The fact that the source to Solaris 10 has been opened so that future
versions can be fully Free is great news. While it is pedantically
correct to say that Solaris 10 is not "open source", the same
standard applied to other things that it is normal to call "open
source" would also disqualify them. Right or wrong, most people don't
bother with the distinction.
> The fact that Sun keeps saying that "Solaris" is open source
> doesn't help, but I can really sympathize with that since in some
> markets it actually makes good sense to position the product that way.
We're a community of geeks and pedants (I stand guilty as charged)
but we have to recognise that, in the world outside our community,
people do and will always simplify and generalise and in the process
move into territory that is pedantically incorrect. I'd assert that
the people at Sun who have written those materials are actually /
correct/ to do so. Educating the world to continue to treat Solaris
as "proprietary" or "closed" is not in anyone's interests - well,
apart from people who want to perpetuate the false division of the
Unix family.
S.
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From:
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 14, 2007 11:08 AM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>
> From a communications perspective, explaining OpenSolaris is extremely
> challenging when you consider all the diverse audiences around the
> world: customers and partners, competitors, governments, press and
> analysts, developers, administrators, users, university
> students/professors, etc. The fact that Sun keeps saying that
> "Solaris" is open source doesn't help, but I can really sympathize
> with that since in some markets it actually makes good sense to
> position the product that way.
>
> Whenever I talk to people I always say that Solaris is Sun's supported
> binary product. It's closed. OpenSolaris is a subset of the source
> code for Solaris. It's open. At that level it's not confusing at all.
> It gets confusing when we try to make it out to be more than it is and
> explain all that across all audiences in all markets simultaneously.
> If Indy can solve that problem, cool. I'm all for it. I doubt that it
> can in the short term, though. I think this will take years to clear
> up, and I don't see any problem with that whatsoever.
You're right that there's a lot of confusion, and we haven't been able
to clear that up. Especially not since a lot of people at Sun itself are
confused and have been mixing "Solaris" and "OpenSolaris".
Taking the line that OpenSolaris should have been a downloadable
distribution would have been fine, if that had been the take from the
start. Perhaps it should have been. But now it's too late for that. We
made a promise that OpenSolaris is a codebase with an associated
community. People have been creating distributions that are
"OpenSolaris-based". If a distribution called "OpenSolaris" is created,
they can't call themselves "OpenSolaris-based" anymore, because, well,
they wouldn't be. And essentially, since the initiative would clearly
have come from within Sun, the feeling would be that Sun "took back" the
OpenSolaris name, and forced the other distributions to call themselves
"Chopped Liver OS".
I would have no objection to something like "OpenSolaris Community
Edition"; I think that's cool. Just plain "OpenSolaris" would
essentially be breaking a promise.
- Frank
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 13, 2007 1:57 PM
in response to: patrickf
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Patrick Finch wrote:
> ..
> ... For the last 2 years I have been dealing with the confusion that
> "OpenSolaris" is not a bootable OS...
Is there anybody here who hasn't been? In my opinion, this represents a
huge, self-inflicted disconnect that exists between us (The OpenSolaris
Community) and the broader UNIX/Linux community that needs to be fixed...
somehow. So I hope we make so -- "by hook or by crook!" as my mother would
say. Oh, and applause to Ian and Glynn for shining a big spotlight on this
problem too.
-Eric
"The audience is never wrong. Never."
- William Friedkin
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689
From:
GB
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 3:55 AM
in response to: stevel
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I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
That is not here.
Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it
something else.
S.
On Jun 6, 2007, at 05:19, Stephen Lau wrote:
> I'm not a core contributor to either community, so my vote is
> meaningless - but as long as the distribution doesn't call itself
> "OpenSolaris" as has been tossed around, I agree in principle.
>
> The goals and objectives of the project are worthy and good (for
> whatever my opinion is worth), I'm just wary of something that will
> attempt to overload and redefine what "OpenSolaris" is.
>
> cheers,
> steve
>
> On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:51:37AM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing
>> and
>> User Group communities/
>>
>>
>> hey ...
>>
>> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User
>> Group
>> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/
>> 000555.html
>>
>> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail
>> list
>> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
>> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
>> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/
>> 000819.html
>>
>> Agree? Disagree?
>>
>> Jim
>> --
>> Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
> --
> stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
> opensolaris // solaris kernel development
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 4:14 AM
in response to: webmink
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>I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>
>This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>That is not here.
>
>Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
>within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it
>something else.
You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
mechanisms?
Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
went elsewhere?
Casper
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Alexey Ushakov
Alexey.Ushakov@Sun.COM
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 4:30 AM
in response to: casper
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Hello,
I'm novice in ug-discuss and opensolaris-mktg, so would like to ask if
someone could clarify what does sponsorship of the opensource project
mean. Actually, I'm working in J2SE and we are also have a bunch of
requests for sponsorship but so far we didn't get clear explanation of
the meaning of this term. So, probably because OpenSolaris started long
time ago there is some terminology that we should know when dealing with
the community.
Best Regards,
Alexey
Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>> That is not here.
>>
>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
>> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it
>> something else.
>>
>
> You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
> are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
> by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
> mechanisms?
>
> Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
> and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
> went elsewhere?
>
> Casper
> _______________________________________________
> ug-discuss mailing list
> ug-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
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689
From:
GB
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 4:47 AM
in response to: casper
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|
On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:14, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
> You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
> are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
> by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
> mechanisms?
Yes, and most importantly their own discussion mechanisms (if any).
The actual tasks of defining and constructing the distributions (a
combination of editorial decision and engineering activity) are
conducted elsewhere than opensolaris.org by people who are indeed
members of the OpenSolaris community.
The main novelty of the various proposals for an OpenSolaris
distribution including the Indiana proposal is to have at least one
distribution constructed collaboratively inside the community. I
believe the key factor here is transparent decision-making.
> Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
> and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
> went elsewhere?
I believe that the resources necessary for building a distribution
are available on opensolaris.org, although the resources needed to
sustain it (mainly a repository for hosting the package system I
think) are not. It's perfectly possible some tuning and refactoring
will be necessary as whatever system we all create gains momentum.
S.
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 5:46 AM
in response to: webmink
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> >You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
> >are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
> >by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
> >mechanisms?
>
> Yes, and most importantly their own discussion mechanisms (if any).
> The actual tasks of defining and constructing the distributions (a
> combination of editorial decision and engineering activity) are
> conducted elsewhere than opensolaris.org by people who are indeed
> members of the OpenSolaris community.
>
> The main novelty of the various proposals for an OpenSolaris
> distribution including the Indiana proposal is to have at least one
> distribution constructed collaboratively inside the community. I
> believe the key factor here is transparent decision-making.
All or most of the current distributions have transparent
decision-making. They just don't happen to have dedicated lists
on opensolaris.org. Most of the decisions for BeleniX happen on
the ug-bosug at opensolaris dot org list, for instance. If all it takes
to become an official OpenSolaris distribution is to have a
dedicated mailing list, maybe the BeleniX team should ask one.
Come to think of it, it might be a good idea anyway to have
distro-specific mailing lists on opensolaris.org.
> >Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
> >and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
> >went elsewhere?
>
> I believe that the resources necessary for building a distribution
> are available on opensolaris.org, although the resources needed to
> sustain it (mainly a repository for hosting the package system I
> think) are not. It's perfectly possible some tuning and refactoring
> will be necessary as whatever system we all create gains momentum.
Most of the distributions (SchilliX, BeleniX and probably even
Nexenta) started before the OpenSolaris website was capable of
supporting them. That shouldn't make them any less worthy of
being called OpenSolaris distributions.
Venky.
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:08 AM
in response to: Venky
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Venky wrote:
>>> You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
>>> are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
>>> by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
>>> mechanisms?
>>
>> Yes, and most importantly their own discussion mechanisms (if any).
>> The actual tasks of defining and constructing the distributions (a
>> combination of editorial decision and engineering activity) are
>> conducted elsewhere than opensolaris.org by people who are indeed
>> members of the OpenSolaris community.
>>
>> The main novelty of the various proposals for an OpenSolaris
>> distribution including the Indiana proposal is to have at least one
>> distribution constructed collaboratively inside the community. I
>> believe the key factor here is transparent decision-making.
>
> All or most of the current distributions have transparent
> decision-making. They just don't happen to have dedicated lists
> on opensolaris.org. Most of the decisions for BeleniX happen on
> the ug-bosug at opensolaris dot org list, for instance. If all it takes
> to become an official OpenSolaris distribution is to have a
> dedicated mailing list, maybe the BeleniX team should ask one.
>
> Come to think of it, it might be a good idea anyway to have
> distro-specific mailing lists on opensolaris.org.
>
>>> Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
>>> and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
>>> went elsewhere?
>>
>> I believe that the resources necessary for building a distribution
>> are available on opensolaris.org, although the resources needed to
>> sustain it (mainly a repository for hosting the package system I
>> think) are not. It's perfectly possible some tuning and refactoring
>> will be necessary as whatever system we all create gains momentum.
>
> Most of the distributions (SchilliX, BeleniX and probably even
> Nexenta) started before the OpenSolaris website was capable of
> supporting them. That shouldn't make them any less worthy of
> being called OpenSolaris distributions.
+1000 (on all counts).
Eric
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:25 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:14, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>> You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
>> are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
>> by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
>> mechanisms?
>
> Yes, and most importantly their own discussion mechanisms (if any). The
> actual tasks of defining and constructing the distributions (a
> combination of editorial decision and engineering activity) are
> conducted elsewhere than opensolaris.org by people who are indeed
> members of the OpenSolaris community.
>
> The main novelty of the various proposals for an OpenSolaris
> distribution including the Indiana proposal is to have at least one
> distribution constructed collaboratively inside the community. I believe
> the key factor here is transparent decision-making.
I don't agree that just because they coordinate their work on other
sites they aren't considered part of the community. Talks on all the
various distributions were given at the OpenSolaris Developers
Conference last year. All the various distribution contributors and
creators participate via opensolaris.org mailing lists.
Speaking as one of the tonic team members, we simply didn't (don't?)
have the infrastructure needs distributions require. We didn't have SCM
until recently. We still don't have project bug tracking. We don't
provide a way for projects/communities to setup their own mailing lists
without bugging Eric.
If I were any of the other distributions, I would have done the same thing.
Given the state of the current infrastructure, I don't feel Indiana
would fare any better. How will Indiana do distribution wide bug tracking?
>> Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
>> and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
>> went elsewhere?
>
> I believe that the resources necessary for building a distribution are
> available on opensolaris.org, although the resources needed to sustain
> it (mainly a repository for hosting the package system I think) are not.
> It's perfectly possible some tuning and refactoring will be necessary as
> whatever system we all create gains momentum.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:01 AM
in response to: casper
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>> That is not here.
>>
>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
>> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it
>> something else.
>
> You are saying that the other OpenSolaris based distributions
> are created outside the OpenSolaris community? Is this
> by virtue of them having their own websites and distribution
> mechanisms?
>
> Was the OpenSolaris website even equiped to handle such a download
> and was that perhaps the reason that those other distributions
> went elsewhere?
Casper's right. Nexenta, BeleniX and other existing distros
are, by all rights and intentions, projects of and by the
OpenSolaris community. The Nexenta project leadership sees it
that way too:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2007-March/026547.html
Eric
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 4:18 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps a écrit :
> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>
> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
> That is not here.
Agreed with that.
> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it something
> else.
What is the OpenSolaris community in that case? Does that mean that the
current distros are being done by people somehow outside it?
Honestly, I've noted that there is already quie a confusion about what
«OpenSolaris» is. Many people I know, who are not (yet) Sun users, do
believe it's an actual OS similar to Solaris, but, well, «Open», more
Linux-like, maybe.
Some also seem to think that SX OpenSolaris. Or that Nexenta
OpenSolaris.
I've seen threads on the OS.o lists about «running things on
OpenSolaris» (which meant «running things on all distros based on
OpenSolaris«).
Anyway, unless a very, very strong communication effort is made to
clarify that, there's no way us contributors can influence what the rest
of the world will call us. Remember that today, Linux Red Hat for
many people. And this is not something that I would like to happen in
our community, one distro becoming the beacon of all attention from the
outside.
Laurent
--
/ Leader de Projet & Communauté | I'm working, but not speaking for
\ I18N/L10N http://opensolaris.org | Bull Services http://www.bull.com
/ FOSUG http://guses.org |
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 5:30 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Hi all,
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 11:55 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
> That is not here.
So this is a tough one. Imho - there are multiple communities on
opensolaris.org that could make a claim to host Indiana, but it's hard
to see any one engineering community where it would live.
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/#portal
So given that no engineering-focused community fits the bill, I think
that Marketing/User-groups/Advocacy is probably the *best* place to host
the project - one of Indiana's goals is to get more people using
OpenSolaris, and that sure as heck sounds like Advocacy to me!
Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on the
road ?
cheers,
tim
--
Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops
http://blogs.sun.com/timf
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 5:43 AM
in response to: timf
|
|
On Jun 6, 2007, at 13:30, Tim Foster wrote:
> Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
> quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on
> the
> road ?
Would be a fine thing, unless the Advocacy community is going to be
designated the time-limited "holding area" for all new ideas.
S.
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 6:03 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 13:43 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 13:30, Tim Foster wrote:
> > Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
> > quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on
> > the road ?
>
> Would be a fine thing, unless the Advocacy community is going to be
> designated the time-limited "holding area" for all new ideas.
Works for me.
- actually digging into the constitution (I know, sorry) I see mention
of an "At-large Community" in section 7.3[1] - does that have the
ability to create a project space on opensolaris.org ?
Regardless, giving the guys somewhere, anywhere, to go work on Indiana
in public view, would be a good thing, whoever ends up sponsoring them
eventually (cf. my previous "Get a room!" comment).
cheers,
tim
[1] http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/governance/#ARTICLE_VII.__Community_Groups
--
Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops
http://blogs.sun.com/timf
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:26 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 13:30, Tim Foster wrote:
>
>> Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
>> quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on the
>> road ?
>
> Would be a fine thing, unless the Advocacy community is going to be
> designated the time-limited "holding area" for all new ideas.
All someone needs to do is propose the Distributions Community.... as of
yet, none has been officially proposed to the OGB.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:08 AM
in response to: timf
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Tim Foster wrote:
>
> ...
> Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
> quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on the
> road ?
+1000
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 7:10 AM
in response to: timf
|
|
NB: Installation and Packaging Community also said they'd be
happy to sponsor Indiana:
http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=32261&tstart=0
--Eric
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Tim Foster wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 11:55 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote:
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>> That is not here.
>
> So this is a tough one. Imho - there are multiple communities on
> opensolaris.org that could make a claim to host Indiana, but it's hard
> to see any one engineering community where it would live.
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/#portal
>
>
> So given that no engineering-focused community fits the bill, I think
> that Marketing/User-groups/Advocacy is probably the *best* place to host
> the project - one of Indiana's goals is to get more people using
> OpenSolaris, and that sure as heck sounds like Advocacy to me!
>
> Otherwise, if folks disagree with that sentiment, could we please
> quickly get a "Distributions Community" formed and get this show on the
> road ?
>
> cheers,
> tim
>
> --
> Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops
> http://blogs.sun.com/timf
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
>
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:14 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>
> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
> That is not here.
But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it something
> else.
But there isn't exactly one distribution... we have 5 that I count (not
including Indiana). Indiana will only be called "the OpenSolaris
distribution" if people insist on it. That's what I'm opposed to.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:27 AM
in response to: stevel
|
|
On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy.
>> It should be in a place where co-development engineers will
>> participate. That is not here.
>
> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd
suggest though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate
venue.
>
>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
>> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the
>> OpenSolaris distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to
>> name it something else.
>
> But there isn't exactly one distribution... we have 5 that I count
> (not including Indiana). Indiana will only be called "the
> OpenSolaris distribution" if people insist on it. That's what I'm
> opposed to.
Right now there exactly zero distributions developed withing the
community - that's not my words, that (as Laurent points out
elsewhere) is how we describe ourselves on http://www.opensolaris.org/
os/about/ :
> The main difference between the OpenSolaris project and the Solaris
> Operating System is that the OpenSolaris project does not provide
> an end-user product or complete distribution.
What multiple people have suggested is it's time to change that as it
is confusing for newcomers. I completely support that change.
S.
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:38 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>>> That is not here.
>>
>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>
> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd suggest
> though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate venue.
Agreed. Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community
doesn't exist - I think it's reasonable for Mktg/Ug/Advocacy to sponsor
it instead. But again, that should be up to the core contributors of
said community.
>>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed
>>> within the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>>> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it
>>> something else.
>>
>> But there isn't exactly one distribution... we have 5 that I count
>> (not including Indiana). Indiana will only be called "the OpenSolaris
>> distribution" if people insist on it. That's what I'm opposed to.
>
> Right now there exactly zero distributions developed withing the
> community - that's not my words, that (as Laurent points out elsewhere)
> is how we describe ourselves on http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/ :
>> The main difference between the OpenSolaris project and the Solaris
>> Operating System is that the OpenSolaris project does not provide an
>> end-user product or complete distribution.
>
> What multiple people have suggested is it's time to change that as it is
> confusing for newcomers. I completely support that change.
Incorrect. You are misreading "OpenSolaris project" as "OpenSolaris
community". That text states that "the OpenSolaris project" doesn't
provide a distribution, not the OpenSolaris community. I agree the text
is confusing; but the point it's trying to make is what our initial
message of OpenSolaris has always stated:
OpenSolaris is a set of source code from which others base distributions.
This has always been 100% true and correct. Others within the community
(including Sun) have derived binary distributions based on OpenSolaris
source code.
So I disagree that there are exactly zero distributions developed within
the community.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:50 AM
in response to: stevel
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>
>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>>>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>>>> That is not here.
>>>
>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>
>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd suggest
>> though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate venue.
>
> Agreed.
Me too.
> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community
> doesn't exist
I'd be very willing to help start one.
Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors who are
nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will become the
initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person who will
serve as the community's Facilitator...
I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
this discussion who are as well...
Eric
> - I think it's reasonable for Mktg/Ug/Advocacy to sponsor it
> instead. But again, that should be up to the core contributors of said
> community.
>
>>>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed within
>>>> the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>>>> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it something
>>>> else.
>>>
>>> But there isn't exactly one distribution... we have 5 that I count (not
>>> including Indiana). Indiana will only be called "the OpenSolaris
>>> distribution" if people insist on it. That's what I'm opposed to.
>>
>> Right now there exactly zero distributions developed withing the community
>> - that's not my words, that (as Laurent points out elsewhere) is how we
>> describe ourselves on http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/ :
>>> The main difference between the OpenSolaris project and the Solaris
>>> Operating System is that the OpenSolaris project does not provide an
>>> end-user product or complete distribution.
>>
>> What multiple people have suggested is it's time to change that as it is
>> confusing for newcomers. I completely support that change.
>
> Incorrect. You are misreading "OpenSolaris project" as "OpenSolaris
> community". That text states that "the OpenSolaris project" doesn't provide
> a distribution, not the OpenSolaris community. I agree the text is
> confusing; but the point it's trying to make is what our initial message of
> OpenSolaris has always stated:
>
> OpenSolaris is a set of source code from which others base
> distributions.
>
> This has always been 100% true and correct. Others within the community
> (including Sun) have derived binary distributions based on OpenSolaris source
> code.
>
> So I disagree that there are exactly zero distributions developed within the
> community.
>
> cheers,
> steve
> --
> stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
> opensolaris // solaris kernel development
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:54 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:50, Eric Boutilier wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or
>>>>> Advocacy. It should be in a place where co-development
>>>>> engineers will participate. That is not here.
>>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs
>>>> of non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd
>>> suggest though that a "Distributions" community is a more
>>> appropriate venue.
>>
>> Agreed.
>
> Me too.
>
>> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community
>> doesn't exist
>
> I'd be very willing to help start one.
>
> Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
>
> ... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors
> who are
> nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will
> become the
> initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person
> who will
> serve as the community's Facilitator...
>
> I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
> this discussion who are as well...
I would support that proposal (I am a core contributor).
S.
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Re: Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:56 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:50, Eric Boutilier wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy.
>>>>>> It should be in a place where co-development engineers will
>>>>>> participate. That is not here.
>>>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>>>>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd
>>>> suggest though that a "Distributions" community is a more
>>>> appropriate venue.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>
>> Me too.
>>
>>> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community
>>> doesn't exist
>>
>> I'd be very willing to help start one.
>>
>> Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
>>
>> ... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors
>> who are
>> nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will become the
>> initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person who
>> will
>> serve as the community's Facilitator...
>>
>> I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
>> this discussion who are as well...
>
> I would support that proposal (I am a core contributor).
I'll nominate as well.
-steve
--
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Re: Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 10:24 AM
in response to: stevel
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:50, Eric Boutilier wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>>>>>>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>>>>>>> That is not here.
>>>>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>>>>>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>>>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd suggest
>>>>> though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate venue.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> Me too.
>>>
>>>> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community doesn't
>>>> exist
>>>
>>> I'd be very willing to help start one.
>>>
>>> Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
>>>
>>> ... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors who
>>> are
>>> nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will become the
>>> initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person who
>>> will
>>> serve as the community's Facilitator...
>>>
>>> I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
>>> this discussion who are as well...
>>
>> I would support that proposal (I am a core contributor).
>
> I'll nominate as well.
OK, that's three[1].
So when it comes to creating a new Community Group, the biggest delay is a
required 14-day discussion period[2]. So in the interest of starting that
timer as soon as possible, I hope to pull together and post/review a 1st
draft of the proposal here as soon as possible. And with that in mind, I'll
get there even faster if I have a tailwind. Which is to say, if anyone can
contribute bullets or paragraphs, especially wording around goals and
technical scope, any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Here are the guidelines they provide for proposal writers:
".. Community members can propose new Community Groups by
writing to the ogb-discuss list outlining items such as
goals, technical scope, potential participants, leaders,
and activities..."
--Eric
1. Keep those nominations coming though -- three is just the
required minimum.
2. Please direct any comments about excessive beuracracy to
opensolaris-discuss :)
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 10:33 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
Should we maybe send an heads-up message to the leadership of
the five distros? (Six including Indiana.) I suspect some of
them would not otherwise know about this effort.
Eric
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Eric Boutilier wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:50, Eric Boutilier wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>>>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>>>>>>>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>>>>>>>> That is not here.
>>>>>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>>>>>>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>>>>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd
>>>>>> suggest though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate
>>>>>> venue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>> Me too.
>>>>
>>>>> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community doesn't
>>>>> exist
>>>>
>>>> I'd be very willing to help start one.
>>>>
>>>> Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
>>>>
>>>> ... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors who
>>>> are
>>>> nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will become the
>>>> initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person who
>>>> will
>>>> serve as the community's Facilitator...
>>>>
>>>> I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
>>>> this discussion who are as well...
>>>
>>> I would support that proposal (I am a core contributor).
>>
>> I'll nominate as well.
>
> OK, that's three[1].
>
> So when it comes to creating a new Community Group, the biggest delay is a
> required 14-day discussion period[2]. So in the interest of starting that
> timer as soon as possible, I hope to pull together and post/review a 1st
> draft of the proposal here as soon as possible. And with that in mind, I'll
> get there even faster if I have a tailwind. Which is to say, if anyone can
> contribute bullets or paragraphs, especially wording around goals and
> technical scope, any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Here are the guidelines they provide for proposal writers:
>
> ".. Community members can propose new Community Groups by
> writing to the ogb-discuss list outlining items such as
> goals, technical scope, potential participants, leaders,
> and activities..."
>
> --Eric
>
> 1. Keep those nominations coming though -- three is just the
> required minimum.
>
> 2. Please direct any comments about excessive beuracracy to
> opensolaris-discuss :)
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 10:35 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
Yes, good idea.
Eric Boutilier wrote:
> Should we maybe send an heads-up message to the leadership of
> the five distros? (Six including Indiana.) I suspect some of
> them would not otherwise know about this effort.
>
> Eric
>
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Eric Boutilier wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:50, Eric Boutilier wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>>>>>>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>>>>>>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or
>>>>>>>>> Advocacy. It should be in a place where co-development
>>>>>>>>> engineers will participate. That is not here.
>>>>>>>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs
>>>>>>>> of non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>>>>>>> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd
>>>>>>> suggest though that a "Distributions" community is a more
>>>>>>> appropriate venue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Me too.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Though, for the time being, since the "Distributions" community
>>>>>> doesn't exist
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be very willing to help start one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the key requirements per the main Community page:
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Proposals need to list at least 3 current Core Contributors
>>>>> who are
>>>>> nominating the community, at least 3 participants who will
>>>>> become the
>>>>> initial Core Contributors of the new community, and one person
>>>>> who will
>>>>> serve as the community's Facilitator...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a Core Contributor, and we probably have several others on
>>>>> this discussion who are as well...
>>>>
>>>> I would support that proposal (I am a core contributor).
>>>
>>> I'll nominate as well.
>>
>> OK, that's three[1].
>>
>> So when it comes to creating a new Community Group, the biggest delay
>> is a
>> required 14-day discussion period[2]. So in the interest of starting that
>> timer as soon as possible, I hope to pull together and post/review a 1st
>> draft of the proposal here as soon as possible. And with that in mind,
>> I'll
>> get there even faster if I have a tailwind. Which is to say, if anyone
>> can
>> contribute bullets or paragraphs, especially wording around goals and
>> technical scope, any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Here are the guidelines they provide for proposal writers:
>>
>> ".. Community members can propose new Community Groups by
>> writing to the ogb-discuss list outlining items such as
>> goals, technical scope, potential participants, leaders,
>> and activities..."
>>
>> --Eric
>>
>> 1. Keep those nominations coming though -- three is just the
>> required minimum.
>>
>> 2. Please direct any comments about excessive beuracracy to
>> opensolaris-discuss :)
>> _______________________________________________
>> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
>> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>>
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 10:38 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
> ...
>
> 2. Please direct any comments about excessive beuracracy to
> opensolaris-discuss.
... and poor spelling to /dev/null. :-/
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Re: Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 10:47 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
On 6/6/07, Eric Boutilier <Eric dot Boutilier at sun dot com> wrote:
> Should we maybe send an heads-up message to the leadership of
> the five distros? (Six including Indiana.) I suspect some of
> them would not otherwise know about this effort.
Having a ditribution community proposal come from elsewhere
without their involvement and agreement would seem undesirable.
In fact, they should be leading such an effort - one might rightly
ask why they did not come up with the proposal themselves?
I have some problems with a distributions community. One is that
the immediate objective seems to be to find Indiana a home, which
seems backward (especially given that the Install community is a
pretty good fit, and while not all the core contributors have chimed
in yet, we have the required 3 +1 votes and no -1 yet). The other is
that, constitutionally, a community exists to initiate and manage
projects, so that if it were to do what it's supposed to then the
distributions would either (a) choose to not be a part of the
distributions community, or (b) no longer be independent agents
free to do their own thing. Neither option seems desirable, so why
create a formal management structure?
--
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 11:06 AM
in response to: ptribble
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Peter Tribble wrote:
> On 6/6/07, Eric Boutilier <Eric dot Boutilier at sun dot com> wrote:
>> Should we maybe send an heads-up message to the leadership of
>> the five distros? (Six including Indiana.) I suspect some of
>> them would not otherwise know about this effort.
>
> Having a ditribution community proposal come from elsewhere
> without their involvement and agreement would seem undesirable.
> In fact, they should be leading such an effort - one might rightly
> ask why they did not come up with the proposal themselves?
>
> I have some problems with a distributions community. One is that
> the immediate objective seems to be to find Indiana a home,
Uh oh. Hopefully you're mostly alone in that perception.
That's pretty scary otherwise.
For my part, as most (hopefully) know by now, it's unthinkable (beyond
unthinkable) for that to have been my objective.
Eric
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 11:24 AM
in response to: ptribble
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Peter Tribble wrote:
> On 6/6/07, Eric Boutilier <Eric dot Boutilier at sun dot com> wrote:
>> Should we maybe send an heads-up message to the leadership of
>> the five distros? (Six including Indiana.) I suspect some of
>> them would not otherwise know about this effort.
>
> Having a ditribution community proposal come from elsewhere
> without their involvement and agreement would seem undesirable.
> In fact, they should be leading such an effort - one might rightly
> ask why they did not come up with the proposal themselves?
>
> I have some problems with a distributions community. One is that
> the immediate objective seems to be to find Indiana a home, which
> seems backward (especially given that the Install community is a
> pretty good fit, and while not all the core contributors have chimed
> in yet, we have the required 3 +1 votes and no -1 yet). The other is
> that, constitutionally, a community exists to initiate and manage
> projects, so that if it were to do what it's supposed to then the
> distributions would either (a) choose to not be a part of the
> distributions community, or (b) no longer be independent agents
> free to do their own thing. Neither option seems desirable, so why
> create a formal management structure?
Good point. Code talks.
So I agree that the degree and diversity of interest that comes from the
distros (or not) will strengthen (or weaken) this proposal proportionally,
and that it should probably be aborted if the distros mostly explicitely
object to the creation of a distros community group.
Eric
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 11:41 AM
in response to: ptribble
|
|
> ...
> (especially given that the Install community is a
> pretty good fit, and while not all the core contributors have chimed
> in yet, we have the required 3 +1 votes and no -1 yet).
Putting on my "Project Herald" hat[1] ...
It actually doesn't matter how many Community Groups (CGs) a project
belongs to. So in this situation, the Indiana project creation request can
happen immediately (e.g via the Installation CG, or via the Advocacy CG,
which also now supports it). Indiana will then have 2 endorsing CGs at the
outset and a 3rd if the Distro CG becomes a reality.
Eric
1. Cool designation huh? Anyone want it? :-)
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:44 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It should
>>> be in a place where co-development engineers will participate. That is not
>>> here.
>>
>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>
> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd suggest
> though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate venue.
>
>>
>>> Secondly, the name. If there is exactly one distribution developed within
>>> the OpenSolaris community, it will be called "the OpenSolaris
>>> distribution" whatever artificial attempts are made to name it something
>>> else.
>>
>> But there isn't exactly one distribution... we have 5 that I count (not
>> including Indiana). Indiana will only be called "the OpenSolaris
>> distribution" if people insist on it. That's what I'm opposed to.
>
> Right now there exactly zero distributions developed withing the community -
As I said, that's wrong. Nexenta, BeleniX and other existing distros are,
by all rights and intentions, projects of and by the OpenSolaris community.
The Nexenta project leadership sees it that way too:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2007-March/026 547.html
Eric
> that's not my words, that (as Laurent points out elsewhere) is how we
> describe ourselves on http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/ :
>> The main difference between the OpenSolaris project and the Solaris
>> Operating System is that the OpenSolaris project does not provide an
>> end-user product or complete distribution.
>
> What multiple people have suggested is it's time to change that as it is
> confusing for newcomers. I completely support that change.
>
> S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-mktg mailing list
> opensolaris-mktg at opensolaris dot org
>
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:58 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
On Jun 6, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Eric Boutilier wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>>
>> Right now there exactly zero distributions developed withing the
>> community -
>
> As I said, that's wrong. Nexenta, BeleniX and other existing
> distros are,
> by all rights and intentions, projects of and by the OpenSolaris
> community.
Others have already pointed out the text in the OpenSolaris charter
which seems at variance with this position. Rather than arguing about
how we can interpret the words to allow this reality, let's just
adjust the words which are causing confusion.
It seems to me that there's an obviously useful set of moves to make
things clear:
1) Create the Distro group. Invite all of the existing distros based
on OpenSolaris to join and use it for
interDistro discussion.
a) Encourage intraDistro discussions to migrate to this hosting area
as well
b) Discourage leveraging this infrastructure for the download
hosting of the distros themselves ;>
2) Work with the Marketing groups and/or Execs to appropriately
license the use of the term "OpenSolaris" as a brand for
all distros which meet some set of constraints.
3) The spark of this discussion was Project Indiana which probably
should have a special place. Just as Debian
is the UrDistribution for a whole raft of Linux distros, so it is
probable that will happen to a successful
Solaris UrDistro. Hopefully we won't have to fission as much as
they have (viz. make and continue to evolve
the Solaris UrDistro fast enough to satisfy the bulk of needs)
but if architected well, those with special needs
should be able to derive from it, rather than going back to the
original sources. The proposal that this UrDistro
uniquely be called OpenSolaris is probably a BadProposal. I don't
have a good name (DebIan suggests
names like JonIan; but there really are too many potential three
letters to represent either Execs or Engineers
whose blood sweat and tears should be commemorated). I doubt
people would like to cannonize a name like UrDistro ;>
Keith H. Bierman keith dot bierman at Sun dot COM | khbkhb at gmail dot com
Sun Microsystems Microelectronics Group | sun IM: khb AIM: kbiermank
5430 Nassau Circle East | 650-352-4432 voice+fax
Cherry Hills Village, CO 80113 | sun internal 68207
http://blogs.sun.com/khb | 303-997-2749
<speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2007
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 7, 2007 7:35 AM
in response to: webmink
|
|
[Revisiting this sub-thread between Simon and Steve]...
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 16:14, Stephen Lau wrote:
>
>> Simon Phipps wrote:
>>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It should
>>> be in a place where co-development engineers will participate. That is not
>>> here.
I agree with Simon.
>>
>> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
>> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
>
> In which case many other aspects of OpenSolaris belong here. I'd suggest
> though that a "Distributions" community is a more appropriate venue.
Although a Distributions community would indeed be an appropriate venue --
/if/ it existed. There isn't a Distributions Community Group today, and for
good reason (I now realize)...
Quoting Peter Tribble:
"... Why create a formal management structure"
Full post:
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-mktg/2007-June/003854.html
Eric
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Re: Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 7, 2007 8:18 AM
in response to: ericb
|
|
How difficult is it to move a mailing list? I ask, cause might it not make sense to setup indiana-discuss now, and then move it to the appropriate community once you all have figured out where to put it?
Does it really matter whether it is "technical" or "engineering"? I say that because I suspect if Indiana catches on, it will eventually be promoted to it's own community.
Let's just creat the project and mailing list, and tie it to either the marketing, install, or approachability communities. (Marketing and install have seconded lets just make the list.)
(I think the people who are proposing the project should make a quick executive decision which community it goes in. I personally prefer approachability, but that is probably just me).
brian
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 7, 2007 8:38 AM
in response to: brandorr
|
|
On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Brian Gupta wrote:
> How difficult is it to move a mailing list? I ask, cause might it not make
> sense to setup indiana-discuss now, and then move it to the appropriate
> community once you all have figured out where to put it?
>
> Does it really matter whether it is "technical" or "engineering"?
I think only in one minor way, and only at the outset (i.e. now):
One of the Community Groups that has endorsed the Indiana project
proposal (two so far AFAIK) needs to submit the new-project request.
Other than that, a project can belong to any number of Community Groups.
> I say that
> because I suspect if Indiana catches on, it will eventually be promoted to
> it's own community.
Agree.
> Let's just creat the project and mailing list, and tie it to either the
> marketing, install, or approachability communities. (Marketing and install
> have seconded lets just make the list.)
> ...
Hang in there, Glynn's working on it.
Eric
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 2:20 PM
in response to: stevel
|
|
Hey,
Stephen Lau wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>> That is not here.
>
> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
At the end of the day I suspect it won't matter - we'll have a project page, and
some community groups will endorse that or not through the web infrastructure
[1]. I agree with the intent of wanting to get a community group to sponsor any
project request, but think it's somewhat redundant when the project starts.
Glynn
[1] I'll certainly make sure the Desktop endorses, as it would if Belenix,
Nexenta or otherwise was a community proposal - there's a lot of overlap
there, and would expect the desktop dudes to be involved
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Pedro Gracia
lasarux@gmail.com
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 2:33 PM
in response to: gman
|
|
To finish this day, a bit of humor with this tribute to "Indiana" Murdock "Jones" and The Last Crusade. ;-) http://lasarux.blogspot.com/2007/06/indiana-indy-la-ltima-cruzada.html
(in Spanish). Cheers, Pedro 2007/6/6, Glynn Foster <Glynn dot Foster at sun dot com>:
Hey,
Stephen Lau wrote:
> Simon Phipps wrote:
>> I'm afraid I don't agree on either count.
>>
>> This is an engineering project. It is not Marketing or Advocacy. It
>> should be in a place where co-development engineers will participate.
>> That is not here.
>
> But isn't part of Indiana about addressing the perceived needs of
> non-Solaris users? Doesn't that involve marketing and advocacy?
At the end of the day I suspect it won't matter - we'll have a project page, and
some community groups will endorse that or not through the web infrastructure
[1]. I agree with the intent of wanting to get a community group to sponsor any
project request, but think it's somewhat redundant when the project starts.
Glynn
[1] I'll certainly make sure the Desktop endorses, as it would if Belenix,
Nexenta or otherwise was a community proposal - there's a lot of overlap
there, and would expect the desktop dudes to be involved
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 5:13 PM
in response to: Pedro Gracia
|
|
Pedro Gracia wrote:
> To finish this day, a bit of humor with this tribute to "Indiana"
> Murdock "Jones" and The Last Crusade. ;-)
>
> http://lasarux.blogspot.com/2007/06/indiana-indy-la-ltima-cruzada.html
> <http://
> (in Spanish).
Hahaha - awesome! That's totally worth an OpenSolaris swag pack! Send me your
address off list, and I'll figure something out. Perfect hackergotchi too :)
Glynn
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From:
US
Registered:
4/28/05
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Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 9:54 PM
in response to: jimgris
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and User
> Group communities/
>
>
> hey ...
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>
> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list can be
> set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this project since
> we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've suggested this to Glynn
> on the OGB list:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>
> Agree? Disagree?
Agree.
I do want to note here that I'm definitely in the camp with those concerned
about the project wanting to use the designation OpenSolaris Distro.
(Should that designation even be claimable by a project? If yes, does the
Indiana project get to claim it?) But working out tricky issues like that
is one of the big reasons the Indiana project urgently needs its own
website space and mailing list. So an enthusiastic thumbs up from me.
Eric
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Re: [ug-discuss] Re: Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 5, 2007 10:04 PM
in response to: ericb
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Just in case we haven't had enough votes already - I agree too.
Venky.
On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 11:54:54PM -0500, Eric Boutilier wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> >/sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
> >User Group communities/
> >
> >
> >hey ...
> >
> >I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
> >Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
> >
> >http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
> >
> >The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list can
> >be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this project
> >since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've suggested this
> >to Glynn on the OGB list:
> >
> >http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
> >
> >Agree? Disagree?
>
> Agree.
>
> I do want to note here that I'm definitely in the camp with those concerned
> about the project wanting to use the designation OpenSolaris Distro.
> (Should that designation even be claimable by a project? If yes, does the
> Indiana project get to claim it?) But working out tricky issues like that
> is one of the big reasons the Indiana project urgently needs its own
> website space and mailing list. So an enthusiastic thumbs up from me.
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> ug-discuss mailing list
> ug-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Posts:
56
From:
ES
Registered:
7/11/06
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Re: [ug-discuss] Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 1:59 AM
in response to: jimgris
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Helo Jim,
agree
David
SPOSUG
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:51:37 +0900, Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at Sun dot COM> wrote:
> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
> User Group communities/
>
>
> hey ...
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>
> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>
> Agree? Disagree?
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim Grisanzio http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
> --
> _______________________________________________
> ug-discuss mailing list
> ug-discuss at opensolaris dot org
--
***********************
David Galán Ortiz
dgalan at aulaunix dot org
www.aulaunix.org
blogs.aulaunix.org
***********************
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Posts:
153
From:
Dublin, Ireland
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: [ug-discuss] Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:51 AM
in response to: jimgris
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Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
> User Group communities/
>
>
> hey ...
>
> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>
> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>
> Agree? Disagree?
Hello,
For the last few weeks there was probably 1000+ e-mails about project
Indiana. That is brilliant, since it tells that this conversation was
really needed, and this kind of project is also needed.
I was trying to follow the threads, some people were pointing very
important things and some just complaining without being creative. I
think that they just do like to complain :)
First people received a lot of messages on the opensolaris-discuss, than
the conversation was spreading in the light speed to the other mailing
lists.
(I will try to complain a little. I hope with some creative thought).
Maybe this is a time to create indiana-discuss mailing list, and just
point to alias on the other mailing-lists, so the discussion will move
up there. Why?
- people that are returning after 3 days off will not have 200+
messages in the mailbox (most of them will not even try to touch the thread)
- everything will be in one place, so there will be no cross mailing
- people that are not interested, will not resign from subscribing to
the mailing lists, just because they get to much messages
- much more reasons :)
--
best
Michal Pryc
Member of Irish OpenSolaris Users Group
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/os_user_groups/ie-osug/
http://blogs.sun.com/migi
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Posts:
1,156
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: [ug-discuss] Sponsor Project Indiana
Posted:
Jun 6, 2007 8:55 AM
in response to: migi
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Michal Pryc wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>> /sending to both lists due to the possible merger of the Marketing and
>> User Group communities/
>>
>>
>> hey ...
>>
>> I'd like to suggest that the Marketing Community and/or the User Group
>> Community endorse Glynn's Project Indiana proposal:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000555.html
>>
>> The team needs a sponsoring community so a project space and mail list
>> can be set up, and I think our communities should be involved in this
>> project since we stand to benefit from its potential success. I've
>> suggested this to Glynn on the OGB list:
>>
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-June/000819.html
>>
>> Agree? Disagree?
>
> Hello,
> For the last few weeks there was probably 1000+ e-mails about project
> Indiana. That is brilliant, since it tells that this conversation was
> really needed, and this kind of project is also needed.
>
> I was trying to follow the threads, some people were pointing very
> important things and some just complaining without being creative. I
> think that they just do like to complain :)
>
> First people received a lot of messages on the opensolaris-discuss, than
> the conversation was spreading in the light speed to the other mailing
> lists.
>
> (I will try to complain a little. I hope with some creative thought).
>
> Maybe this is a time to create indiana-discuss mailing list, and just
> point to alias on the other mailing-lists, so the discussion will move
> up there. Why?
>
> - people that are returning after 3 days off will not have 200+ messages
> in the mailbox (most of them will not even try to touch the thread)
> - everything will be in one place, so there will be no cross mailing
> - people that are not interested, will not resign from subscribing to
> the mailing lists, just because they get to much messages
> - much more reasons :)
>
This whole thread has been about getting the marketing community to
sponsor Project Indiana so that it can get project space, and thus a
mailing list.
cheers,
steve
--
stephen lau // stevel at sun dot com | 650.786.0845 | http://whacked.net
opensolaris // solaris kernel development
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