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Permlink Replies: 47 - Last Post: Apr 24, 2006 10:48 AM by: calumb
calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 3, 2006 9:42 AM

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As many of you know, previous versions of JDS have customised the
Launch menu in various ways, for example, by adding a 'quick launch'
area. If you're using our latest OpenSolaris version of JDS though,
you'll notice that we haven't done much in the way of customisation yet.

In order to provide some backwards-familiarity, we've been working on
a spec for those customisations, the result of which (after a brief
round of internal review) is here:

http://www.gnome.org/~calum/nevada/ui-spec/index.htm

Obviously, however, you're (some) of the people who are going to be
using this, so your feedback is important and welcome. There are a
number of open questions in our minds, such as whether you'd like us
to go down this route at all, or whether you prefer the newer,
community-style Launch menu that's currently in OpenSolaris (which
might preclude us from including the quick launch area at the top,
however, as it would start to become overly long at that point).
Another is whether you'd like us to continue emphasising the
Documents folder over the Home folder in the UI generally, or whether
you'd prefer to emphasise the Home folder, or give equal weighting to
both.

This draft spec also covers areas such as default panel and desktop
appearance, and file manager behaviour, although those sections
haven't really been fleshed out yet. Comments on those sections are
welcome too, however.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 8, 2006 4:05 PM   in response to: calumb

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Hello Calum,

I've read through your specification. I'm happy to see this spec and have an oportunity to comment on it. I think it is generally very nice.

My comments are going to be written in the order of the content of the document.

Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just that this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity expect. With this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something more like Windows XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and separates recently frequently used apps from links to common places in the filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that would be better for the familiarity/usability of this environment.

From a purely "appearance" standpoint, I'm also a bit concerned that our Launch menu looks basically like the Windows one did in 2000. Wouldn't that give folks somewhat familiar with the Microsoft UI transitions to have a gut-level feeling that we're very dated and old fashioned?

For the rest of my comments, I'm assuming an audience for this of "end users" and "developers/programmers" who are mostly familiar with Windows and some who are familiar with GNOME and/or JDS.

TOP LEVEL;
- I don't think there's a need to distinguish the quick launch things differently. Given how little most users customize environments, I think that kind of information would just be unnecessary visual "noise" no matter how it is distinguished.

- I don't agree with the notion that app names should only appear on the quick launch (and star office) items. My reason for this is are twofold:
1) I feel the menus full of "generic" names makes the whole environment feel a little "cheap"
2) I think it's a bit confusing to launch "Image Editor" and be presented with a big dialog proclaiming "GIMP" and subsequent UI naming "GIMP" rather than "Image Editor". In some cases my first reaction is "Oh, there's a bug here. I chose "Archive Manager" and got something called "File Roller".

I do really like the pairing of the product name with a little description of it (Firefox Web Browser) rather than "Firefox"... that provides both bits of info in what seems a generally unobtrusive manner.

- I wouldn't put the checkbox for quick launch apps in the caplet. It solves the one case you mention of someone changing the preferred app and not understanding that the things in the quick launch area are references to existing apps. On the other hand, it does strongly imply that we've reserved those exclusively for these apps. (on the other hand, I can't figure out how one changes what is in the quick launch area. Maybe if that were more obviously presented it would help this concern?)

APPLICATIONS MENU
- I understand the importance of accessibility. Yet, it always bothers me that it is the first thing on the list. I'm routinely ending up in it when I wanted to be in Accessories. I don't know if this is Windows muscle memory, or just that both start with "Access" and so it takes me a moment to notice I'm going to the wrong one. (given that these are more 'how do I get my system working' kinds of things, I'd expect them more in the system tools area).

- Personally I like programming, but I don't have a good sense which word would seem more like "stay away" to non-programmers/developers.

ACCESSORIES
- IMO, shipping an app which doesn't work in many cases seems undesirable.
- To me, archive manager, pda synchronization and maybe even character map seem like utilities, not lightweight quick apps. See my comment about admin tools, below.

INTERNET
- Personally, I've never been comfortable with the "internet" category. Personally, I don't think of apps as "internet apps" or not. But, like developer/programmer, I don't know at this level of detail whether users will understand this or even care.

OFFICE
- I'm overjoyed to find Acrobat Reader and Evince stuff in some office/productivity apps section!

SOUND AND VIDEO
- Alluding to the point above in the Accessories menu, many of the things here seem like they're system configuration/management/preferences kinds of things. Audio control, maybe CD Database Server, volume control, recording level monitor, volume monitor all don't seem like "applications" to me.
- I share a bit of your concern about video stuff... but that may be just because the names are so generic... Though, I suppose someone will assume "Java Media Player" is just for playing Java-related media, whatever that is. :-)

SYSTEM TOOLS
- I don't quite understand the distinction between System Tools and Administration (and, given some of the things in this list, Preferences). When I've got my administrator hat on, the Windows division of some sys admin tools into Control Panels -> Performance -> Admin Tools (or whatever it is called) and some in the Accessories menu drives me batty. I'm sure if I were a professional admin I'd have memorized which is which, but as I'm not it seems random which goes where. I'm concerned you'll be doing the same thing here.

USERNAME
- I'm a bit surprised to see Computer in here. Same with the Network servers. How is this "Computer" different than the one in the main menu?
Also, Maybe it is because the rest of this menu is shared by all users but each user gets their own set of network servers?
- Not sure what to make of CD/DVD Creator... Not sure what the overall interaction is once I've chosen it.

ADMINISTRATION
- See system tools, above

PREFERENCES
- Why is "About me" not "About (username)"?

OTHER
- Is there a dire need to have network status on the panel? It's blinking bothers me and some other folks I've talked to. :-(


So, there are my comments. To summarize my main points:
- I think a different organization of system tools and administration and other "utilities" (and possibly preferences?) would be beneficial.
- The stuff in the "user" menu surprised me.
- I'd like to see real app names rather than generic names more often.
- A more Windows XP-ish launch menu would probably be beneficial for user muscle memory and our seeming more modern.

Overall, despite my seeming to have many comments, I think it's a great spec! Thanks for posting!


david

alanc

Posts: 5,504
From: US

Registered: 3/9/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 8, 2006 4:26 PM   in response to: davidjon

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David John Burrowes wrote:
> 1) I feel the menus full of "generic" names makes the whole environment feel a little "cheap"
> 2) I think it's a bit confusing to launch "Image Editor" and be presented with a big dialog proclaiming "GIMP" and subsequent UI naming "GIMP" rather than "Image Editor". In some cases my first reaction is "Oh, there's a bug here. I chose "Archive Manager" and got something called "File Roller".

It also seems like we're trying to hide the real program name and would be a bit
insulting to the communities who work on producing them.

> - Is there a dire need to have network status on the panel? It's blinking bothers me and some other folks I've talked to. :-(

It's also redundant and counter-productive in some environments - if you can
see anything at all on your Sun Ray, your network must be working and flashing
it is just increasing the network bandwidth usage, causing it to flash even
more.

On my laptop, it's also wrong 50% of the time unless I go in and reconfigure
it every time I switch between the wired & wireless interfaces.

--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 4:11 AM   in response to: alanc

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On 9 Mar 2006, at 00:26, Alan Coopersmith wrote:

> David John Burrowes wrote:
>> 1) I feel the menus full of "generic" names makes the whole
>> environment feel a little "cheap"
>> 2) I think it's a bit confusing to launch "Image Editor" and be
>> presented with a big dialog proclaiming "GIMP" and subsequent UI
>> naming "GIMP" rather than "Image Editor". In some cases my first
>> reaction is "Oh, there's a bug here. I chose "Archive Manager" and
>> got something called "File Roller".
>
> It also seems like we're trying to hide the real program name and
> would be a bit
> insulting to the communities who work on producing them.

Well, to be fair, this is what the community version of GNOME does
too, and has done for years, so we're not doing anything they don't
approve of.

(The original community plan was that core GNOME apps really would be
called "Text Editor" rather than "gedit", for example, but some
maintainers understandably got a bit stroppy about that, so the
compromise was to use generic names on the menus for core apps, and
keep the application name in the application itself, although
preferably just in its About box.)

>
>> - Is there a dire need to have network status on the panel? It's
>> blinking bothers me and some other folks I've talked to. :-(
>
> It's also redundant and counter-productive in some environments -
> if you can
> see anything at all on your Sun Ray, your network must be working
> and flashing
> it is just increasing the network bandwidth usage, causing it to
> flash even
> more.

I'm happy to remove it. Incidentally though, the 2.14 version does
blink a /lot/ less noticeably than the JDS3 version, you really have
to look at it now to check whether it's doing anything or not.

> On my laptop, it's also wrong 50% of the time unless I go in and
> reconfigure
> it every time I switch between the wired & wireless interfaces.

Yes, that's annoying alright... and it ought not to be that hard to
fix, really.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
_______________________________________________
desktop-discuss mailing list
desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org



davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 3:02 PM   in response to: calumb

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> > It also seems like we're trying to hide the real program name and
> > would be a bit
> > insulting to the communities who work on producing them.
>
> Well, to be fair, this is what the community version of GNOME does
> too, and has done for years, so we're not doing anything they don't
> approve of.
>
> (The original community plan was that core GNOME apps really would be
> called "Text Editor" rather than "gedit", for example, but some
> maintainers understandably got a bit stroppy about that, so the
> compromise was to use generic names on the menus for core apps, and
> keep the application name in the application itself, although
> preferably just in its About box.)

That's interesting. Any idea why the community wanted to do that?


> >> - Is there a dire need to have network status on the panel? It's
> >> blinking bothers me and some other folks I've talked to. :-(
> >
> > It's also redundant and counter-productive in some environments -
> > if you can
> > see anything at all on your Sun Ray, your network must be working
> > and flashing
> > it is just increasing the network bandwidth usage, causing it to
> > flash even
> > more.
>
> I'm happy to remove it. Incidentally though, the 2.14 version does
> blink a /lot/ less noticeably than the JDS3 version, you really have
> to look at it now to check whether it's doing anything or not.

I'd be curious to see what it looks like now... yet, I'm still biased
against it showing. A static image showing "alive" and "dead" seem like
it would be sufficient? (at the same time, I suppose in this day and
age where so much of one's life involves interacting with the network,
one is probably more likely to notice the network is down because one's
browser or mail client doesn't work. So, maybe I should ask before
suggesting the thing should or shouldn't be removed: what problem is it
solving?

david

david

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 5:31 AM   in response to: davidjon

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On 9 Mar 2006, at 23:02, David-John Burrowes wrote:

>>> It also seems like we're trying to hide the real program name and
>>> would be a bit
>>> insulting to the communities who work on producing them.
>>
>> Well, to be fair, this is what the community version of GNOME does
>> too, and has done for years, so we're not doing anything they don't
>> approve of.
>>
>> (The original community plan was that core GNOME apps really would be
>> called "Text Editor" rather than "gedit", for example, but some
>> maintainers understandably got a bit stroppy about that, so the
>> compromise was to use generic names on the menus for core apps, and
>> keep the application name in the application itself, although
>> preferably just in its About box.)
>
> That's interesting. Any idea why the community wanted to do that?

Partly because, cute project names aside, anything that's part of the
core GNOME desktop shouldn't /really/ need to identify itself as any
more than "the GNOME text editor", "the GNOME terminal", "the GNOME
calculator" etc. It's only when you install some funky third-party
app that does the same thing that some disambiguation is necessary.

Also, it was an effort to somewhat move away from an app-centric view
of things, but without the pain of trying to invent a completely doc-
centric UI. The theory being that users are more interested in what
they want to do, rather than the arbitrary name of the application
they need to open to use it: "I want to send an email", "I want to
browse the web", "I want to open a spreadsheet"... hence the
preference for applications called "Email", "Web Browser" and
"Spreadsheet", rather than "Evolution", "Firefox" and "OpenOffice
Calc". (Bear in mind again that we were squarely targetting Joe-call-
center and Jo-bank-clerk in those days, who were likely to have more
pressing things to do with their time than worry about what "Firefox"
or "Evolution" meant.)

In Sun's case, another factor was that initially we made a conscious
decision to ship just one application for each of those tasks, so
there was no need for additional disambiguation. That went off the
rails a bit in later releases when we started throwing in all sorts
of unsupported Java apps and technology previews, though.

> I'd be curious to see what it looks like now... yet, I'm still biased
> against it showing. A static image showing "alive" and "dead" seem
> like
> it would be sufficient? (at the same time, I suppose in this day and
> age where so much of one's life involves interacting with the network,
> one is probably more likely to notice the network is down because
> one's
> browser or mail client doesn't work. So, maybe I should ask before
> suggesting the thing should or shouldn't be removed: what problem
> is it
> solving?

There's no doubt it partly came into being "because Windows has one",
but a number of people have said that they like the reassurance of
seeing at a glance that their network is functional (or not) when
troubleshooting. Also, for wireless networks, it shows the current
signal strength, which is quite handy I guess.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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gman

Posts: 1,901
From: NZ

Registered: 6/16/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 8, 2006 5:36 PM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hi,

On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 16:05 -0800, David John Burrowes wrote:
> Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically
> asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be
> like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just that
> this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity expect. With
> this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something more like Windows
> XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and separates recently
> frequently used apps from links to common places in the
> filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that would be better for
> the familiarity/usability of this environment.

Actually that's interesting because the latest screenshots coming from
NLD [Novell Linux Desktop] suggest that they've gone for a 2 columned
approach too. The community were relatively unhappy with this because
it's yet another 'Ximian based conspiracy to keep them out of the loop',
but it might be nice to experiment with this kind of thing, if we could
do it compatibly.


Glynn

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paulby

Posts: 6
From: USA

Registered: 12/9/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 10:43 AM   in response to: gman

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We should also be mindful of what MS is doing with Vista as this will
influence future users muscle memory etc.

The start menu in Vista is different from XP (at least in the current
beta).

Rgds

Paul

Glynn Foster wrote:

>Hi,
>
>On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 16:05 -0800, David John Burrowes wrote:
>
>
>>Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically
>>asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be
>>like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just that
>>this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity expect. With
>>this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something more like Windows
>>XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and separates recently
>>frequently used apps from links to common places in the
>>filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that would be better for
>>the familiarity/usability of this environment.
>>
>>
>
>Actually that's interesting because the latest screenshots coming from
>NLD [Novell Linux Desktop] suggest that they've gone for a 2 columned
>approach too. The community were relatively unhappy with this because
>it's yet another 'Ximian based conspiracy to keep them out of the loop',
>but it might be nice to experiment with this kind of thing, if we could
>do it compatibly.
>
>
>Glynn
>
>_______________________________________________
>desktop-discuss mailing list
>desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org
>
>
_______________________________________________
desktop-discuss mailing list
desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org



gman

Posts: 1,901
From: NZ

Registered: 6/16/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 1:11 PM   in response to: paulby

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hey,

On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 10:43 -0800, Paul Byrne wrote:
> We should also be mindful of what MS is doing with Vista as this will
> influence future users muscle memory etc.
>
> The start menu in Vista is different from XP (at least in the current
> beta).

Could you provide screenshots, or pointers to some screenshots? I can
host them if you don't have webspace?

thanks,

Glynn

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paulby

Posts: 6
From: USA

Registered: 12/9/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 2:12 PM   in response to: gman

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


Unfortunately it appears to be really hard to grab a screenshot of the
menu, even assuming I had an app that would capture the image (perhaps
gimp would) as soon as I select an app the menu disappears.

The only thing I can think of is to capture the entire video stream, but
I don't have the equipment.

Next time you (or anyone else) is in the vicinity of Santa Clara I'd
gladly give you a demo.

Rgds

Paul

Glynn Foster wrote:

>Hey,
>
>On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 10:43 -0800, Paul Byrne wrote:
>
>
>>We should also be mindful of what MS is doing with Vista as this will
>>influence future users muscle memory etc.
>>
>>The start menu in Vista is different from XP (at least in the current
>>beta).
>>
>>
>
>Could you provide screenshots, or pointers to some screenshots? I can
>host them if you don't have webspace?
>
>thanks,
>
>Glynn
>
>
>
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John Rice
John.Rice@Sun.COM
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 2:35 AM   in response to: paulby

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Glynn - check out:

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/vista5270_089.jpg

Though should mention in latest build virtual folders have been all but backed out
[http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308.asp]


http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5270.asp

New Start button and Start menu

You'll notice subtle improvements to the Windows Vista desktop as soon as it appears. The ugly Start button has been replaced by a prettier round Start button that loses the "Start" text but includes the Vista flag logo. The Start menu itself has been thoroughly overhauled as well, with a new layout and, on systems with Aero Glass, an icon preview that sticks up above the top level of the menu and animates as you mouse over items on the right side of the menu (Figure ).

Now, recently used applications are given more precedence in the Start menu, and that left half of the menu occupies about two-thirds of the total menu width. Navigation is as with previous Vista builds: There's no more All Programs pop-up menu. Instead, the left portion of the Start menu displays everything in place.

On the right side of the Start menu, all of the options have completed changed, though it's not obvious at first, and they lack icons now. As you mouse over each item on the right side, the top icon preview changes to display the icon of the item you're about to select. At the top of this right side of the menu is an entry for your home folder, though it's not called that, and is named per your user name (mine says "Paul"). Below that are a list of commonly-accessed personal folders (Virtual Folders in previous builds, and special shell folders in XP), commonly-accessed file system locations (Library, Computer, and Network), and other options such as Recent Items, Control Panel, Program Defaults (formerly "Set Program Access and Defaults"), and Help. At the bottom right are buttons for locking and shutting down the computer.

The personal folders in the Start menu bear some explanation, since their use has changed. In Windows XP, you're probably familiar with special shell folders like My Documents, My Music, and My Pictures that appear in the Start menu. In previous Vista builds, the equivalent items in the Start menu (Documents, Music, and Pictures) pointed not to physical folder locations as in XP, but rather to Virtual Folders, a new UI construct that aggregates content from all over your hard drive and presents it in a single place. So, for example, the Documents entry in the October CTP actually brought you to a Virtual Folder called All Documents. I found this confusing because there was actually a physical folder called Documents as well, and you could get to it from the All Documents Virtual Folder.

So how does it work in 5270? When you select Documents from the Start Menu, you're actually brought to the Documents folder that sits under your home folder. In other words, it works just like XP. You can still access various document-related Virtual Folders from the left-mounted Common Places pane in the window that appears, however. This is, I think, more logical than the previous system. And, as it turns out, it's something that Microsoft has struggled with as it moves towards a truly virtualized file system.

"We actually considered at one time not having folders," Microsoft lead product manager Greg Sullivan told me during a recent briefing. "It was all going to be virtualized storage with search queries and so on. We would just completely abstract the file organization stuff from the physical folders and disk structure. But that was too much of a leap over the chasm, too confusing for users. But what we have now will probably evolve over time as well."

Sullivan agreed with me that the previous system in Vista, where Start menu items linked to confusingly named Virtual Folders instead of similarly named physical folders, had proven to be too confusing as well. So the company began working earlier this fall to simplify the interface. "The namespace stuff has been simplified in a lot of ways, but the rationalization of what you just talked about, where you have a Virtual Folder and a physical folder with the same or similar names, that's going to change," he said. "We're doing a bunch of usability testing on the whole thing and it's changing. The idea that we can abstract the physical folders is still valuable, however."

So Virtual Folders are still there. They're still the results of search queries, and you can still create your own custom Virtual Folders. Now, however, the Pictures item in the Start menu actually launches the physical folder called Pictures. Likewise, Music launches Music, not a Virtual Folder. But each of these folder views does include access to various Virtual Folders, and you can open the new Library item in the Start menu to view all of the available Virtual Folders on your system. It will be interesting to see how (or if) users take to Virtual Folders. Microsoft is, in some ways, betting that they will, but I think this switch is inevitable, thanks to the massive storage devices we now have, and because much of the content we access is not stored locally, but is instead found on networked drives or even Internet-based file stores.



Paul Byrne wrote:
<pre wrap="">Unfortunately it appears to be really hard to grab a screenshot of the menu, even assuming I had an app that would capture the image (perhaps gimp would) as soon as I select an app the menu disappears. The only thing I can think of is to capture the entire video stream, but I don't have the equipment. Next time you (or anyone else) is in the vicinity of Santa Clara I'd gladly give you a demo. Rgds Paul Glynn Foster wrote: </pre>
<pre wrap="">Hey, On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 10:43 -0800, Paul Byrne wrote: </pre>
<pre wrap="">We should also be mindful of what MS is doing with Vista as this will influence future users muscle memory etc. The start menu in Vista is different from XP (at least in the current beta). </pre>
<pre wrap="">Could you provide screenshots, or pointers to some screenshots? I can host them if you don't have webspace? thanks, Glynn </pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->_______________________________________________ desktop-discuss mailing list desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org </pre>

_______________________________________________ desktop-discuss mailing list desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org

Frank Ludolph
frank.ludolph@Sun.COM
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 10:12 AM   in response to: John Rice

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Thanks John.

Note in the following that users are quite confused by MS's "virtual folders". While naming is part of it, the user model is very broken due to MS's abusing the basic folder metaphor. A folder is a container. To users a "virtual folder" also seems to be a container, so a document seems to be two places, the Documents folder and the Documents virtual folder. It takes a lot of explaining that a virtual folder isn't actually a container. Users lock onto their understanding of "folder" since most are uncomfortable with the meaning of "virtual" and how it applies to folders. This just isn't part of a user's world knowledge. "Virtual folders" will continue to cause lots of confusion until the underlying metaphor is changed to something entirely different, e.g. some sort of "list" - lists don't contain things, they refer to things.

Frank


John Rice wrote:
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title>

You'll notice subtle improvements to the Windows Vista desktop as soon as it appears. The ugly Start button has been replaced by a prettier round Start button that loses the "Start" text but includes the Vista flag logo. The Start menu itself has been thoroughly overhauled as well, with a new layout and, on systems with Aero Glass, an icon preview that sticks up above the top level of the menu and animates as you mouse over items on the right side of the menu (Figure ).

...

Sullivan agreed with me that the previous system in Vista, where Start menu items linked to confusingly named Virtual Folders instead of similarly named physical folders, had proven to be too confusing as well. So the company began working earlier this fall to simplify the interface. "The namespace stuff has been simplified in a lot of ways, but the rationalization of what you just talked about, where you have a Virtual Folder and a physical folder with the same or similar names, that's going to change," he said. "We're doing a bunch of usability testing on the whole thing and it's changing. The idea that we can abstract the physical folders is still valuable, however."

So Virtual Folders are still there. They're still the results of search queries, and you can still create your own custom Virtual Folders. Now, however, the Pictures item in the Start menu actually launches the physical folder called Pictures. Likewise, Music launches Music, not a Virtual Folder. But each of these folder views does include access to various Virtual Folders, and you can open the new Library item in the Start menu to view all of the available Virtual Folders on your system. It will be interesting to see how (or if) users take to Virtual Folders. Microsoft is, in some ways, betting that they will, but I think this switch is inevitable, thanks to the massive storage devices we now have, and because much of the content we access is not stored locally, but is instead found on networked drives or even Internet-based file stores.

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 10:46 AM   in response to: Frank Ludolph

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:12, Frank Ludolph wrote:

> Thanks John.
>
> Note in the following that users are quite confused by MS's
> "virtual folders". While naming is part of it, the user model is
> very broken due to MS's abusing the basic folder metaphor. A folder
> is a container. To users a "virtual folder" also seems to be a
> container, so a document seems to be two places, the Documents
> folder and the Documents virtual folder. It takes a lot of
> explaining that a virtual folder isn't actually a container. Users
> lock onto their understanding of "folder" since most are
> uncomfortable with the meaning of "virtual" and how it applies to
> folders. This just isn't part of a user's world knowledge. "Virtual
> folders" will continue to cause lots of confusion until the
> underlying metaphor is changed to something entirely different,
> e.g. some sort of "list" - lists don't contain things, they refer
> to things.

Hmm. Wonder if Mac users have the same problem with "Smart
Folders"? (IIRC, these are also available in GNOME 2.14 as "Search
Folders", but possibly only if you have Beagle installed.)

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 13, 2006 1:34 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

I'm sure Mac users have the same problem with "smart folders". And I
agree with most of what Frank says.

This whole notion of being able to take a query and represent it as a
folder or other such collection is powerful, but it is very, very far
outside of the conceptual model that most people have of their computing
environment.

Except for keyword searches, most people find the notion of a query very
challenging. To somehow "store" one is even harder. To then represent it
as a folder just adds an obscuring layer on top of that challenging
abstraction. Even worse, of course, is the fact that most people really
don't fully understand filesystems, and often are operating out of habit
and faith there.

(on top of all this, I've never been highly clear what problems these
would actually solve for ordinary users :-)

david



On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 10:46, Calum Benson wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:12, Frank Ludolph wrote:
>
> > Thanks John.
> >
> > Note in the following that users are quite confused by MS's
> > "virtual folders". While naming is part of it, the user model is
> > very broken due to MS's abusing the basic folder metaphor. A folder
> > is a container. To users a "virtual folder" also seems to be a
> > container, so a document seems to be two places, the Documents
> > folder and the Documents virtual folder. It takes a lot of
> > explaining that a virtual folder isn't actually a container. Users
> > lock onto their understanding of "folder" since most are
> > uncomfortable with the meaning of "virtual" and how it applies to
> > folders. This just isn't part of a user's world knowledge. "Virtual
> > folders" will continue to cause lots of confusion until the
> > underlying metaphor is changed to something entirely different,
> > e.g. some sort of "list" - lists don't contain things, they refer
> > to things.
>
> Hmm. Wonder if Mac users have the same problem with "Smart
> Folders"? (IIRC, these are also available in GNOME 2.14 as "Search
> Folders", but possibly only if you have Beagle installed.)
>
> Cheeri,
> Calum.
>
> --
> CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
> mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
> http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771
>
> Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
>
>

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 4:53 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 13 Mar 2006, at 21:34, David-John Burrowes wrote:

> I'm sure Mac users have the same problem with "smart folders". And I
> agree with most of what Frank says.
>
> This whole notion of being able to take a query and represent it as a
> folder or other such collection is powerful, but it is very, very far
> outside of the conceptual model that most people have of their
> computing
> environment.
>
> Except for keyword searches, most people find the notion of a query
> very
> challenging. To somehow "store" one is even harder. To then
> represent it
> as a folder just adds an obscuring layer on top of that challenging
> abstraction. Even worse, of course, is the fact that most people
> really
> don't fully understand filesystems, and often are operating out of
> habit
> and faith there.

This is true, but in OSX and GNOME (and presumably Vista, when it
arrives), "smart folders" don't exist in isolation. In OSX, some of
the iLife apps have their own "smart folders" (or "smart playlists",
in the case of iTunes), as does Mail.app. Likewise in GNOME,
Evolution has had vFolders for years. These might be considered
'advanced' features (although they're not marketed as such), but
having used those, a user does at least gain some basis for
abstracting the idea into their file manager.

> (on top of all this, I've never been highly clear what problems these
> would actually solve for ordinary users :-)

For the file manager case, I can at least see some /potential/ for
the sort of "ordinary user" who dumps everything into their "My
Documents" folder, and has no notion of subfolders-- but ironically,
of course, they're probably also the least likely to discover and use
the feature in the normal course of things. To the more
sophisticated user who already has all their documents sorted into
many subfolders of their own making, I'd agree the benefit seems a
bit more marginal.

Where implemented inside individual applications, though, I'd say
they're a lot more useful... most iTunes users seem to understand and
use the concept of smart playlists (partly because it cleverly comes
with some pre-configured), smart folders are invaluable in iPhoto
when you have thousands of photographs to wade through, and many
Evolution users switched from other mail clients just to use
vFolders. (Of course, our own dtmail had that feature too, before
Evolution was even a twinkle in Helixcode/Ximian/Novell's eye...)

Cheeri,
Calum.


> david
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 10:46, Calum Benson wrote:
>> On 10 Mar 2006, at 18:12, Frank Ludolph wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks John.
>>>
>>> Note in the following that users are quite confused by MS's
>>> "virtual folders". While naming is part of it, the user model is
>>> very broken due to MS's abusing the basic folder metaphor. A folder
>>> is a container. To users a "virtual folder" also seems to be a
>>> container, so a document seems to be two places, the Documents
>>> folder and the Documents virtual folder. It takes a lot of
>>> explaining that a virtual folder isn't actually a container. Users
>>> lock onto their understanding of "folder" since most are
>>> uncomfortable with the meaning of "virtual" and how it applies to
>>> folders. This just isn't part of a user's world knowledge. "Virtual
>>> folders" will continue to cause lots of confusion until the
>>> underlying metaphor is changed to something entirely different,
>>> e.g. some sort of "list" - lists don't contain things, they refer
>>> to things.
>>
>> Hmm. Wonder if Mac users have the same problem with "Smart
>> Folders"? (IIRC, these are also available in GNOME 2.14 as "Search
>> Folders", but possibly only if you have Beagle installed.)
>>
>> Cheeri,
>> Calum.
>>
>> --
>> CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
>> mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
>> http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771
>>
>> Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun
>> Microsystems
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> desktop-discuss mailing list
> desktop-discuss at opensolaris dot org

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 8:14 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

>> Except for keyword searches, most people find the notion of a
>> query very
>> challenging. To somehow "store" one is even harder. To then
>> represent it
>> as a folder just adds an obscuring layer on top of that challenging
>> abstraction. Even worse, of course, is the fact that most people
>> really
>> don't fully understand filesystems, and often are operating out of
>> habit
>> and faith there.
>
> This is true, but in OSX and GNOME (and presumably Vista, when it
> arrives), "smart folders" don't exist in isolation. In OSX, some
> of the iLife apps have their own "smart folders" (or "smart
> playlists", in the case of iTunes), as does Mail.app. Likewise in
> GNOME, Evolution has had vFolders for years. These might be
> considered 'advanced' features (although they're not marketed as
> such), but having used those, a user does at least gain some basis
> for abstracting the idea into their file manager.

I know those are there... I have no data about how much ordinary
folks use them (and, I admit we may have different notions of what an
'ordinary user' is :-)

>> (on top of all this, I've never been highly clear what problems these
>> would actually solve for ordinary users :-)
>
> For the file manager case, I can at least see some /potential/ for
> the sort of "ordinary user" who dumps everything into their "My
> Documents" folder, and has no notion of subfolders-- but
> ironically, of course, they're probably also the least likely to
> discover and use the feature in the normal course of things.

Agreed on both counts.

> Where implemented inside individual applications, though, I'd say
> they're a lot more useful... most iTunes users seem to understand
> and use the concept of smart playlists (partly because it cleverly
> comes with some pre-configured), smart folders are invaluable in
> iPhoto when you have thousands of photographs to wade through, and
> many Evolution users switched from other mail clients just to use
> vFolders.

Interesting point.

david

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moinakg

Posts: 1,223
From: India

Registered: 7/15/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 6:51 AM   in response to: paulby

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Paul Byrne wrote:

>Unfortunately it appears to be really hard to grab a screenshot of the
>menu, even assuming I had an app that would capture the image (perhaps
>gimp would) as soon as I select an app the menu disappears.
>
>The only thing I can think of is to capture the entire video stream, but
>I don't have the equipment.
>
>Next time you (or anyone else) is in the vicinity of Santa Clara I'd
>gladly give you a demo.
>
>
A little googling revealed a truckload of Vista screenshots at

http://www.only4gurus.com/v3/longhorn.asp

Looks like the Start Menu now includes a treeview complete with
scrollbars.

Regards,
Moinak.

>Rgds
>
>Paul
>
>Glynn Foster wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hey,
>>
>>On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 10:43 -0800, Paul Byrne wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>We should also be mindful of what MS is doing with Vista as this will
>>>influence future users muscle memory etc.
>>>
>>>The start menu in Vista is different from XP (at least in the current
>>>beta).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Could you provide screenshots, or pointers to some screenshots? I can
>>host them if you don't have webspace?
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>Glynn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>

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gman

Posts: 1,901
From: NZ

Registered: 6/16/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 8, 2006 5:43 PM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hey,

On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 16:05 -0800, David John Burrowes wrote:
> APPLICATIONS MENU
> - I understand the importance of accessibility. Yet, it always
> bothers me that it is the first thing on the list. I'm routinely
> ending up in it when I wanted to be in Accessories. I don't know if
> this is Windows muscle memory, or just that both start with "Access"
> and so it takes me a moment to notice I'm going to the wrong one.
> (given that these are more 'how do I get my system working' kinds of
> things, I'd expect them more in the system tools area).

This *really* bothers me too. Interestingly, XP puts this under
'Accessories'. One of the limitations of doing things with the menu is
that we have a lot of churn when it comes to documentation. This may be
the direct result of our documentation structure though. Matt may want
to comment about the investigation he's been doing in trying to figure
how we can sync with the community documentation a little better.


Glynn

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mattman

Posts: 170
From: IE

Registered: 7/21/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 2:25 AM   in response to: gman

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Glynn Foster wrote:
> This *really* bothers me too. Interestingly, XP puts this under
> 'Accessories'. One of the limitations of doing things with the menu is
> that we have a lot of churn when it comes to documentation. This may be
> the direct result of our documentation structure though. Matt may want
> to comment about the investigation he's been doing in trying to figure
> how we can sync with the community documentation a little better.
>

The plan is for this "churn" to dissappear, WRT to documentation. I've
already put together a prototype
that will automatically substitute in the menu location for your
application into your docbook xml
doc at build time, thus once the outline menu structure is defined
(within gnome-menus), the desktop
file being delivered by a specific component can be used to determine
where on the menus it will
appear, and this can be done at build time.


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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 5:27 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 9 Mar 2006, at 00:05, David John Burrowes wrote:

> Hello Calum,
>
> I've read through your specification. I'm happy to see this spec
> and have an oportunity to comment on it. I think it is generally
> very nice.
>
> My comments are going to be written in the order of the content of
> the document.

Thanks... my responses inline...

> Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically
> asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be
> like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just
> that this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity
> expect. With this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something
> more like Windows XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and
> separates recently frequently used apps from links to common places
> in the filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that would be
> better for the familiarity/usability of this environment.

Have to say I loathe the two-columned menu and turn it off whenever I
get the chance :) But I'd be happy enough to experiment with it if
we have the engineering resources to do so. That would be a pretty
major functionality patch I suspect though, and one of our goals is
to reduce the already-high number of those we maintain, so that may
be one for the back burner this time around. (If, as Glynn says,
Novell are going with it for their next release, though, we may not
have to wait too long.)

>
>> From a purely "appearance" standpoint, I'm also a bit concerned
>> that our Launch menu looks basically like the Windows one did in
>> 2000. Wouldn't that give folks somewhat familiar with the
>> Microsoft UI transitions to have a gut-level feeling that we're
>> very dated and old fashioned?

That is somewhat deliberate (or at least it was when we first
released JDS); most companies and institutions we were shooting for
weren't using the latest and greatest Windows, so we were trying to
present something that looked familiar to Windows 95/98 users to
minimize their retraining efforts (which was our overarching goal for
the JDS at the time).

Of course our target market has changed a little since then, so an
update may be appropriate. As yet though, our marketing folks
haven't been sufficiently forthcoming about what flavours of Windows
our potential "switcher" market is now using, so if you know, please
tell me :)

> TOP LEVEL;
> - I don't think there's a need to distinguish the quick launch
> things differently. Given how little most users customize
> environments, I think that kind of information would just be
> unnecessary visual "noise" no matter how it is distinguished.
>
> - I don't agree with the notion that app names should only appear
> on the quick launch (and star office) items. My reason for this is
> are twofold:
> 1) I feel the menus full of "generic" names makes the whole
> environment feel a little "cheap"
> 2) I think it's a bit confusing to launch "Image Editor" and be
> presented with a big dialog proclaiming "GIMP" and subsequent UI
> naming "GIMP" rather than "Image Editor". In some cases my first
> reaction is "Oh, there's a bug here. I chose "Archive Manager" and
> got something called "File Roller".
>
> I do really like the pairing of the product name with a little
> description of it (Firefox Web Browser) rather than "Firefox"...
> that provides both bits of info in what seems a generally
> unobtrusive manner.

Okay, I can think of three ways of doing this:

Menu entry Tool tip
---------- --------
Firefox Web Browser Browse the world wide web
Web Browser - Firefox Browse the world wide web
Web Browser Firefox: Browse the world wide web

Any preferences? The main concerns I'd have with putting the app
name right on the menu is that (a) it might get a bit cluttered), and
(b) it might look a bit ugly on those menus where some app names
start with capitals (Firefox), and some with lower case letters jEdit).

>
> - I wouldn't put the checkbox for quick launch apps in the caplet.
> It solves the one case you mention of someone changing the
> preferred app and not understanding that the things in the quick
> launch area are references to existing apps. On the other hand, it
> does strongly imply that we've reserved those exclusively for these
> apps.

Yes, that's a good point.

> (on the other hand, I can't figure out how one changes what is in
> the quick launch area. Maybe if that were more obviously presented
> it would help this concern?)

Well, I'm /assuming/ we're at least going to modify the menu editor
that comes with 2.14, so that you can add/remove quick launch items
there. Unfortunately, that's only currently accessible by right-
clicking the Launch menu, which is v. poor. And the editor is built
into the panel code AFAIK, so because it's not a separate
application, I don't know how easy it might be to add a "Menu Editor"
item for it to the Launch menu.


> APPLICATIONS MENU
> - I understand the importance of accessibility. Yet, it always
> bothers me that it is the first thing on the list. I'm routinely
> ending up in it when I wanted to be in Accessories. I don't know if
> this is Windows muscle memory, or just that both start with
> "Access" and so it takes me a moment to notice I'm going to the
> wrong one. (given that these are more 'how do I get my system
> working' kinds of things, I'd expect them more in the system tools
> area).

I'd agree this is kind of annoying... we've considered calling it
"Universal Access" in the past to get around this, but of course
that's locale specific. I'd be happy to relocate them, but it was
the accessibility team who wanted them in their own menu, so they'd
probably have to agree to that too.

> ACCESSORIES
> - IMO, shipping an app which doesn't work in many cases seems
> undesirable.
> - To me, archive manager, pda synchronization and maybe even
> character map seem like utilities, not lightweight quick apps. See
> my comment about admin tools, below.
>
> INTERNET
> - Personally, I've never been comfortable with the "internet"
> category. Personally, I don't think of apps as "internet apps" or
> not. But, like developer/programmer, I don't know at this level of
> detail whether users will understand this or even care.
>
> OFFICE
> - I'm overjoyed to find Acrobat Reader and Evince stuff in some
> office/productivity apps section!
>
> SOUND AND VIDEO
> - Alluding to the point above in the Accessories menu, many of the
> things here seem like they're system configuration/management/
> preferences kinds of things. Audio control, maybe CD Database
> Server, volume control, recording level monitor, volume monitor all
> don't seem like "applications" to me.
> - I share a bit of your concern about video stuff... but that may
> be just because the names are so generic... Though, I suppose
> someone will assume "Java Media Player" is just for playing Java-
> related media, whatever that is. :-)
>
> SYSTEM TOOLS
> - I don't quite understand the distinction between System Tools and
> Administration (and, given some of the things in this list,
> Preferences). When I've got my administrator hat on, the Windows
> division of some sys admin tools into Control Panels -> Performance
> -> Admin Tools (or whatever it is called) and some in the
> Accessories menu drives me batty. I'm sure if I were a
> professional admin I'd have memorized which is which, but as I'm
> not it seems random which goes where. I'm concerned you'll be
> doing the same thing here.

I'd agree this is probably the biggest source of confusion in the
current proposal.

Having thought about it a bit more, I think all these things probably
break down into:

- Settings that affect only your desktop environment, independent
of the
computer you're logged into, e.g. background, fonts,
(networked) printers.

- Applications or settings that affect a specific computer (or
something attached to it) for all users who log into it, e.g. disk
partitions, services, network configuration.

and possibly:

- Settings that affect all users' desktop environments,
independent of the computer
they're logged into

but I can't think of any examples of that last one at the moment,
other than setting system-wide gconf defaults.

Does that sound like a clearer delineation? If so, what would you
call those categories?

> USERNAME
> - I'm a bit surprised to see Computer in here. Same with the
> Network servers. How is this "Computer" different than the one in
> the main menu?

Sorry, that was a typo... Computer shouldn't be in there, it should
only be in the top level.

Have to admit I'm a little unclear about what should really go
here... it was Frank Ludolph who suggested the 'username' menu. His
original suggestion was that it should just contain all the folders
in your home directory, or some sanitized version thereof. However,
that leaves all the Bookmark and Network Places stuff that's on the
community's "Places" menu (which Frank didn't really like, hence his
Username suggestion) with nowhere else to go, unless we keep a Places
menu as well.

This also relates to the "should we still emphasise the Documents
folder over the Home folder everywhere" debate. Frank's suggestion
that we introduce "username" as a synonym for "Home" has its merits,
but also its problems-- there's no guarantee that a user's home
directory will be the same as their username (a prime example being
that root's home directory is often "/" rather than "/root").

> Also, Maybe it is because the rest of this menu is shared by all
> users but each user gets their own set of network servers?

Yes, that's pretty much the case... apart from Desktop, Documents and
CD/DVD creator, the menu is just a list of the user's bookmarked
folders/mounts/network locations, plus the means to add to those.

> - Not sure what to make of CD/DVD Creator... Not sure what the
> overall interaction is once I've chosen it.

It opens a special file manager window into which you can drag files
to be burned to CD/DVD. The window has a "Burn to CD" button you
click when you're finished. Much like a Burn folder in OSX, except
you can't have more than one of them, or choose where to store it.

> PREFERENCES
> - Why is "About me" not "About (username)"?

Good question... just lifted this one straight from the community.
About <username> would make more sense I think.

> OTHER
> - Is there a dire need to have network status on the panel? It's
> blinking bothers me and some other folks I've talked to. :-(

No, I'm happy to remove it. Although the 2.14 version blinks a great
deal less noticeably than our JDS3 version.

> So, there are my comments. To summarize my main points:
> - I think a different organization of system tools and
> administration and other "utilities" (and possibly preferences?)
> would be beneficial.
> - The stuff in the "user" menu surprised me.
> - I'd like to see real app names rather than generic names more often.
> - A more Windows XP-ish launch menu would probably be beneficial
> for user muscle memory and our seeming more modern.

Great, thanks. I'll make the more obvious changes today, and await
your thoughts (or those of anyone else who's read this far) on the
other comments I've made in this reply.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 8:22 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


Couple of quick follow-ups while I think of them...

On 9 Mar 2006, at 13:27, Calum Benson wrote:

> Okay, I can think of three ways of doing this:
>
> Menu entry Tool tip
> ---------- --------
> Firefox Web Browser Browse the world wide web
> Web Browser - Firefox Browse the world wide web
> Web Browser Firefox: Browse the world wide web
>
> Any preferences? The main concerns I'd have with putting the app
> name right on the menu is that (a) it might get a bit cluttered,
> and (b) it might look a bit ugly on those menus where some app
> names start with capitals (Firefox), and some with lower case
> letters (jEdit).

Also, in no particular order:

- there are obviously a lot of apps that start with "g", which may or
may not make things look a bit strange and hard to scan (especially
if we put the binary name first)

- some of the app names just re-iterate the function of the app, e.g.
"gnome-terminal Terminal" is frankly just a bit a silly :) But if we
only show it for some of them, it looks messy and inconsistent...

- some app names (e.g. gnome-terminal again) will start to expose
the "gnome" concept, which JDS has always tried not to do if
possible, as historically we've targeted users who shouldn't
generally know or care what desktop they're using.

>> PREFERENCES
>> - Why is "About me" not "About (username)"?
>
> Good question... just lifted this one straight from the community.
> About <username> would make more sense I think.

Although on further thought, that's probably not easily possible,
given that the application name is taken directly from a static
source (the .desktop file). Maybe it just needs to be called
"Personal Information" or something instead?

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 2:53 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

> > Menu entry Tool tip
> > ---------- --------
> > Firefox Web Browser Browse the world wide web
> > Web Browser - Firefox Browse the world wide web
> > Web Browser Firefox: Browse the world wide web
> >
> > Any preferences? The main concerns I'd have with putting the app
> > name right on the menu is that (a) it might get a bit cluttered,
> > and (b) it might look a bit ugly on those menus where some app
> > names start with capitals (Firefox), and some with lower case
> > letters (jEdit).

Certainly, I prefer the first. :-)
But, see comment below.

> Also, in no particular order:
>
> - there are obviously a lot of apps that start with "g", which may or
> may not make things look a bit strange and hard to scan (especially
> if we put the binary name first)
>
> - some of the app names just re-iterate the function of the app, e.g.
> "gnome-terminal Terminal" is frankly just a bit a silly :) But if we
> only show it for some of them, it looks messy and inconsistent...

I'm' not sure it looks particularly inconsistent... except to someone
that already knows the infrastructure.

For things like gnome-terminal, probably just calling it "Terminal" is
OK(?)... especially because it calls itself "Terminal" in the title bar
when it is started. I do see that it's a bit tricky in many cases to
determine which to do. I think my rule of thumb would be something like
"how does this app name itself in the UI, not necessarily what it calls
its executable".

> - some app names (e.g. gnome-terminal again) will start to expose
> the "gnome" concept, which JDS has always tried not to do if
> possible, as historically we've targeted users who shouldn't
> generally know or care what desktop they're using.

There's an implication there that we want to have the fredom to swap
GNOME out for some other desktop?
I think for users that do'nt know what desktop they are using, the
"gnome" reference will just look weird/quirky... I doubt someone would
say "oh! i'm using GNOME, but didn't know it before" :-)
Maybe I'm missing your point?

>
> >> PREFERENCES
> >> - Why is "About me" not "About (username)"?
> >
> > Good question... just lifted this one straight from the community.
> > About <username> would make more sense I think.
>
> Although on further thought, that's probably not easily possible,
> given that the application name is taken directly from a static
> source (the .desktop file). Maybe it just needs to be called
> "Personal Information" or something instead?

Maybe so. I don't really know what that does in detail, so I'm not sure
what a good name would be.

david


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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 7:54 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 9 Mar 2006, at 22:53, David-John Burrowes wrote:
> For things like gnome-terminal, probably just calling it "Terminal" is
> OK(?)... especially because it calls itself "Terminal" in the title
> bar
> when it is started. I do see that it's a bit tricky in many cases to
> determine which to do. I think my rule of thumb would be something
> like
> "how does this app name itself in the UI, not necessarily what it
> calls
> its executable".

Okay, I've added "alternative" application menus to the spec, that
follow this guideline:
http://www.gnome.org/~calum/nevada/ui-spec/index.htm

Let me know what you think. (I've assumed for now we only want this
to apply to stuff on the Applications menu.)

>> - some app names (e.g. gnome-terminal again) will start to expose
>> the "gnome" concept, which JDS has always tried not to do if
>> possible, as historically we've targeted users who shouldn't
>> generally know or care what desktop they're using.
>
> There's an implication there that we want to have the fredom to swap
> GNOME out for some other desktop?

No, just that Joe-bank-clerk / Jo-call-center needn't know or care
about GNOME... as far as they're concerned, if they need be concerned
at all, they're running Sun's Java Desktop System. Why confuse them? :)

The GNOME community themselves have also moved away from any obvious
uses of the logo or the word "GNOME" on the desktop, FWIW, because in
reality, most people use some mixture of GNOME/KDE/other random
applications.

> I think for users that do'nt know what desktop they are using, the
> "gnome" reference will just look weird/quirky... I doubt someone would
> say "oh! i'm using GNOME, but didn't know it before" :-)

Perhaps you're right. But isn't looking "weird/quirky" reason enough
not to do it on what should be a polished, professional desktop?

> Maybe so. I don't really know what that does in detail, so I'm not
> sure
> what a good name would be.

It's a place where you can enter what amounts to an address book
entry for yourself (email addresses, phone numbers, IM handles,
photograph), and change your login password.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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gman

Posts: 1,901
From: NZ

Registered: 6/16/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 1:14 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 13:27 +0000, Calum Benson wrote:
> > Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically
> > asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be
> > like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just
> > that this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity
> > expect. With this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something
> > more like Windows XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and
> > separates recently frequently used apps from links to common places
> > in the filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that would be
> > better for the familiarity/usability of this environment.
>
> Have to say I loathe the two-columned menu and turn it off whenever I
> get the chance :) But I'd be happy enough to experiment with it if
> we have the engineering resources to do so. That would be a pretty
> major functionality patch I suspect though, and one of our goals is
> to reduce the already-high number of those we maintain, so that may
> be one for the back burner this time around. (If, as Glynn says,
> Novell are going with it for their next release, though, we may not
> have to wait too long.)

http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/preview.html#top

It's a new menu applet, so the original panel menu is the same, but
obviously not shown on the default panel.


Glynn

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 5:15 AM   in response to: gman

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 9 Mar 2006, at 21:14, Glynn Foster wrote:


>
> http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/preview.html#top
>
> It's a new menu applet, so the original panel menu is the same, but
> obviously not shown on the default panel.

Wow. Looks like even more information overload than the XP Start
menu to me, they've really thrown in everything there... slightly
strange mix of content, to my eyes. (Although I appreciate it's not
actually a "Start" menu, but a "Computer" menu.)

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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gman

Posts: 1,901
From: NZ

Registered: 6/16/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 9, 2006 2:20 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 13:27 +0000, Calum Benson wrote:
> Well, I'm /assuming/ we're at least going to modify the menu editor
> that comes with 2.14, so that you can add/remove quick launch items
> there. Unfortunately, that's only currently accessible by right-
> clicking the Launch menu, which is v. poor. And the editor is built
> into the panel code AFAIK, so because it's not a separate
> application, I don't know how easy it might be to add a "Menu Editor"
> item for it to the Launch menu.

Actually, it is a separate menu application, gmenu-simple-editor part of
the gnome-menus component [contained in the SUNWgnome-panel package].


Glynn

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 5:04 AM   in response to: gman

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 9 Mar 2006, at 22:20, Glynn Foster wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 13:27 +0000, Calum Benson wrote:
>> Well, I'm /assuming/ we're at least going to modify the menu editor
>> that comes with 2.14, so that you can add/remove quick launch items
>> there. Unfortunately, that's only currently accessible by right-
>> clicking the Launch menu, which is v. poor. And the editor is built
>> into the panel code AFAIK, so because it's not a separate
>> application, I don't know how easy it might be to add a "Menu Editor"
>> item for it to the Launch menu.
>
> Actually, it is a separate menu application, gmenu-simple-editor
> part of
> the gnome-menus component [contained in the SUNWgnome-panel package].

Ah, ok... in that case it might be worth adding it to the Launch menu.

Cheeri,
Calum.
--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 9:04 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hello Calum,

I'm suffering from the usual email overload and evidently was reading
this thread backwards. here I get to your main reply :-)


>> Question: I've often heard in usability studies people basically
>> asking for basically a basic layout of information in the UI to be
>> like Windows... not that they want a clone of Windows, but just
>> that this is what their muscle memory and mental familiarity
>> expect. With this in mind, I wonder why we aren't doing something
>> more like Windows XP's Start menu, which is dual columned and
>> separates recently frequently used apps from links to common
>> places in the filesystems/dataspace, and so on. I'd think that
>> would be better for the familiarity/usability of this environment.
>
> Have to say I loathe the two-columned menu and turn it off whenever
> I get the chance :)

I know other people who do the same thing :-)

> But I'd be happy enough to experiment with it if we have the
> engineering resources to do so. That would be a pretty major
> functionality patch I suspect though, and one of our goals is to
> reduce the already-high number of those we maintain, so that may be
> one for the back burner this time around. (If, as Glynn says,
> Novell are going with it for their next release, though, we may not
> have to wait too long.)

That might be good. (I did see the screenshot of the Novell one
which is rather busy, but is more in the spirit of the XP and vista
ones)


>>> From a purely "appearance" standpoint, I'm also a bit concerned
>>> that our Launch menu looks basically like the Windows one did in
>>> 2000. Wouldn't that give folks somewhat familiar with the
>>> Microsoft UI transitions to have a gut-level feeling that we're
>>> very dated and old fashioned?
>
> That is somewhat deliberate (or at least it was when we first
> released JDS); most companies and institutions we were shooting for
> weren't using the latest and greatest Windows, so we were trying to
> present something that looked familiar to Windows 95/98 users to
> minimize their retraining efforts (which was our overarching goal
> for the JDS at the time).
>
> Of course our target market has changed a little since then, so an
> update may be appropriate. As yet though, our marketing folks
> haven't been sufficiently forthcoming about what flavours of
> Windows our potential "switcher" market is now using, so if you
> know, please tell me :)

I don't actually know, but that's a good point. I can guess, but
that's no better than anyone else's guess :-)


>> (on the other hand, I can't figure out how one changes what is in
>> the quick launch area. Maybe if that were more obviously
>> presented it would help this concern?)
>
> Well, I'm /assuming/ we're at least going to modify the menu editor
> that comes with 2.14, so that you can add/remove quick launch items
> there. Unfortunately, that's only currently accessible by right-
> clicking the Launch menu, which is v. poor. And the editor is
> built into the panel code AFAIK, so because it's not a separate
> application, I don't know how easy it might be to add a "Menu
> Editor" item for it to the Launch menu.

So, this sounds like an open issue!

>
>> APPLICATIONS MENU
>> - I understand the importance of accessibility. Yet, it always
>> bothers me that it is the first thing on the list. I'm routinely
>> ending up in it when I wanted to be in Accessories. I don't know
>> if this is Windows muscle memory, or just that both start with
>> "Access" and so it takes me a moment to notice I'm going to the
>> wrong one. (given that these are more 'how do I get my system
>> working' kinds of things, I'd expect them more in the system tools
>> area).
>
> I'd agree this is kind of annoying... we've considered calling it
> "Universal Access" in the past to get around this, but of course
> that's locale specific. I'd be happy to relocate them, but it was
> the accessibility team who wanted them in their own menu, so they'd
> probably have to agree to that too.

Are any of them reading this thread?


>> SYSTEM TOOLS
>> - I don't quite understand the distinction between System Tools
>> and Administration (and, given some of the things in this list,
>> Preferences). When I've got my administrator hat on, the Windows
>> division of some sys admin tools into Control Panels ->
>> Performance -> Admin Tools (or whatever it is called) and some in
>> the Accessories menu drives me batty. I'm sure if I were a
>> professional admin I'd have memorized which is which, but as I'm
>> not it seems random which goes where. I'm concerned you'll be
>> doing the same thing here.
>
> I'd agree this is probably the biggest source of confusion in the
> current proposal.
>
> Having thought about it a bit more, I think all these things
> probably break down into:
>
> - Settings that affect only your desktop environment,
> independent of the
> computer you're logged into, e.g. background, fonts,
> (networked) printers.
>
> - Applications or settings that affect a specific computer (or
> something attached to it) for all users who log into it, e.g.
> disk
> partitions, services, network configuration.
>
> and possibly:
>
> - Settings that affect all users' desktop environments,
> independent of the computer
> they're logged into
>
> but I can't think of any examples of that last one at the moment,
> other than setting system-wide gconf defaults.
>
> Does that sound like a clearer delineation? If so, what would you
> call those categories?

As a technical person, I like the distinction you make. I don't know
if it would make a difference to a casual end user... I don't think
their understanding goes that deep. Maybe do a draft of your spec
with that arrangement and see how it feels?

> Have to admit I'm a little unclear about what should really go
> here... it was Frank Ludolph who suggested the 'username' menu.
> His original suggestion was that it should just contain all the
> folders in your home directory, or some sanitized version thereof.
> However, that leaves all the Bookmark and Network Places stuff
> that's on the community's "Places" menu (which Frank didn't really
> like, hence his Username suggestion) with nowhere else to go,
> unless we keep a Places menu as well.
>
> This also relates to the "should we still emphasise the Documents
> folder over the Home folder everywhere" debate. Frank's suggestion
> that we introduce "username" as a synonym for "Home" has its
> merits, but also its problems-- there's no guarantee that a user's
> home directory will be the same as their username (a prime example
> being that root's home directory is often "/" rather than "/root").

I think the answer here is how much we expect an average person to be
working in their home directory rather than their Documents
directory. That is, what usage model do we want to encourage?
Windows clearly doesn't want folks poking into the home directory (it
is reasonably hard to get there, and there is a lot of "junk" there.
The Mac isn't so strong in this regard, for it gives you easy access
to both (with a slight preference for the home directory, even though
there is "junk" there too (but, apps put "junk" into the Documents
folder too. Sigh).

>> Also, Maybe it is because the rest of this menu is shared by all
>> users but each user gets their own set of network servers?
>
> Yes, that's pretty much the case... apart from Desktop, Documents
> and CD/DVD creator, the menu is just a list of the user's
> bookmarked folders/mounts/network locations, plus the means to add
> to those.
>
>> - Not sure what to make of CD/DVD Creator... Not sure what the
>> overall interaction is once I've chosen it.
>
> It opens a special file manager window into which you can drag
> files to be burned to CD/DVD. The window has a "Burn to CD" button
> you click when you're finished. Much like a Burn folder in OSX,
> except you can't have more than one of them, or choose where to
> store it.

Evidently this doesn't open automatically when you stick in a blank CD?

david

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 9:23 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 10 Mar 2006, at 17:04, David John Burrowes wrote:

>> I'd agree this is kind of annoying... we've considered calling it
>> "Universal Access" in the past to get around this, but of course
>> that's locale specific. I'd be happy to relocate them, but it was
>> the accessibility team who wanted them in their own menu, so
>> they'd probably have to agree to that too.
>
> Are any of them reading this thread?

I suspect not... will make sure they're cc'ed before we make any
final decisions though.

> As a technical person, I like the distinction you make. I don't
> know if it would make a difference to a casual end user... I don't
> think their understanding goes that deep. Maybe do a draft of your
> spec with that arrangement and see how it feels?

Yep, I'm working on that now.

> I think the answer here is how much we expect an average person to
> be working in their home directory rather than their Documents
> directory. That is, what usage model do we want to encourage?
> Windows clearly doesn't want folks poking into the home directory
> (it is reasonably hard to get there, and there is a lot of "junk"
> there. The Mac isn't so strong in this regard, for it gives you
> easy access to both (with a slight preference for the home
> directory, even though there is "junk" there too (but, apps put
> "junk" into the Documents folder too. Sigh).

Indeed. I'm fairly sure that developer types would want at least
equal access to their $HOME, but I'm not sure we'd want to lose
Documents altogether... I guess another factor is how much we care
about a smooth transition for existing JDS users who are used to
using their Documents folder.

>> It opens a special file manager window into which you can drag
>> files to be burned to CD/DVD. The window has a "Burn to CD"
>> button you click when you're finished. Much like a Burn folder in
>> OSX, except you can't have more than one of them, or choose where
>> to store it.
>
> Evidently this doesn't open automatically when you stick in a blank
> CD?

Hmm, possibly not... don't have one here to try it, but it might be a
good idea if it did.

Cheeri,
Calum.
--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 10, 2006 9:52 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 10 Mar 2006, at 17:23, Calum Benson wrote:

>> As a technical person, I like the distinction you make. I don't
>> know if it would make a difference to a casual end user... I don't
>> think their understanding goes that deep. Maybe do a draft of
>> your spec with that arrangement and see how it feels?
>
> Yep, I'm working on that now.

Ok, I haven't written it up in the spec, but here's what I've ended
up with on my whiteboard, having started with all the items currently
in "System Tools", "Preferences" and "Administration":

"Current user" config:

Advanced Configuration (gconf-editor)
Assistive Technology Support
Desktop Background
File Manager
Font
Keyboard
Keyboard Accessibility
Keyboard Shortcuts
Language (not 100% on this one as the proposed tool hasn't been
written yet)
Menus & Toolbars
Mouse
Network Proxy
Personal Information
Preferred Applications
Remote Desktop
Screen Resolution
Screensaver
Session
Sound
Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
Theme
Window Management

"Computer" config:

Add/Remove Applications
Add/Remove Printer
Boot Configuation
Login Screen Setup
Network Interface Config
Partition Editor
Power Management
Removable Media
Services
Software Updater
StarOffice Printer Admin (can't remember whether you can run this
as non-root or not...
won't run for me at all just now)
SmartCard Console
Time & Date
Users & Groups

Which leaves as "system tools" (i.e. things that don't actually
"configure" anything):

Bug Reporter
Floppy Formatter
Hardware Configuration Viewer
Hardware Compatability Feedback
New Login in Nested Window
Network Diagnostics
Performance Monitor
Printer Queue Monitor
Switch User (aka New Login)
System Log Viewer
Terminal

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 13, 2006 1:37 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Wow. That doesn't look too bad, actually. :-)

david


On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 09:52, Calum Benson wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2006, at 17:23, Calum Benson wrote:
>
> >> As a technical person, I like the distinction you make. I don't
> >> know if it would make a difference to a casual end user... I don't
> >> think their understanding goes that deep. Maybe do a draft of
> >> your spec with that arrangement and see how it feels?
> >
> > Yep, I'm working on that now.
>
> Ok, I haven't written it up in the spec, but here's what I've ended
> up with on my whiteboard, having started with all the items currently
> in "System Tools", "Preferences" and "Administration":
>
> "Current user" config:
>
> Advanced Configuration (gconf-editor)
> Assistive Technology Support
> Desktop Background
> File Manager
> Font
> Keyboard
> Keyboard Accessibility
> Keyboard Shortcuts
> Language (not 100% on this one as the proposed tool hasn't been
> written yet)
> Menus & Toolbars
> Mouse
> Network Proxy
> Personal Information
> Preferred Applications
> Remote Desktop
> Screen Resolution
> Screensaver
> Session
> Sound
> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
> Theme
> Window Management
>
> "Computer" config:
>
> Add/Remove Applications
> Add/Remove Printer
> Boot Configuation
> Login Screen Setup
> Network Interface Config
> Partition Editor
> Power Management
> Removable Media
> Services
> Software Updater
> StarOffice Printer Admin (can't remember whether you can run this
> as non-root or not...
> won't run for me at all just now)
> SmartCard Console
> Time & Date
> Users & Groups
>
> Which leaves as "system tools" (i.e. things that don't actually
> "configure" anything):
>
> Bug Reporter
> Floppy Formatter
> Hardware Configuration Viewer
> Hardware Compatability Feedback
> New Login in Nested Window
> Network Diagnostics
> Performance Monitor
> Printer Queue Monitor
> Switch User (aka New Login)
> System Log Viewer
> Terminal
>
> Cheeri,
> Calum.
>
> --
> CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
> mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
> http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771
>
> Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
>
>

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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 4:31 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 13 Mar 2006, at 21:37, David-John Burrowes wrote:

> Wow. That doesn't look too bad, actually. :-)

Cool... I think it looks quite reasonable too; my only slight concern
is that it's still slightly tricky to define "system tools"
independently of "user prefs" and "admin prefs"... i.e. it's a lot
easier to say that system tools are basically the things that didn't
belong in user prefs or admin prefs, than to say what they actually
do :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

>
> On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 09:52, Calum Benson wrote:
>> On 10 Mar 2006, at 17:23, Calum Benson wrote:
>>
>>>> As a technical person, I like the distinction you make. I don't
>>>> know if it would make a difference to a casual end user... I don't
>>>> think their understanding goes that deep. Maybe do a draft of
>>>> your spec with that arrangement and see how it feels?
>>>
>>> Yep, I'm working on that now.
>>
>> Ok, I haven't written it up in the spec, but here's what I've ended
>> up with on my whiteboard, having started with all the items currently
>> in "System Tools", "Preferences" and "Administration":
>>
>> "Current user" config:
>>
>> Advanced Configuration (gconf-editor)
>> Assistive Technology Support
>> Desktop Background
>> File Manager
>> Font
>> Keyboard
>> Keyboard Accessibility
>> Keyboard Shortcuts
>> Language (not 100% on this one as the proposed tool hasn't been
>> written yet)
>> Menus & Toolbars
>> Mouse
>> Network Proxy
>> Personal Information
>> Preferred Applications
>> Remote Desktop
>> Screen Resolution
>> Screensaver
>> Session
>> Sound
>> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
>> Theme
>> Window Management
>>
>> "Computer" config:
>>
>> Add/Remove Applications
>> Add/Remove Printer
>> Boot Configuation
>> Login Screen Setup
>> Network Interface Config
>> Partition Editor
>> Power Management
>> Removable Media
>> Services
>> Software Updater
>> StarOffice Printer Admin (can't remember whether you can run this
>> as non-root or not...
>> won't run for me at all just now)
>> SmartCard Console
>> Time & Date
>> Users & Groups
>>
>> Which leaves as "system tools" (i.e. things that don't actually
>> "configure" anything):
>>
>> Bug Reporter
>> Floppy Formatter
>> Hardware Configuration Viewer
>> Hardware Compatability Feedback
>> New Login in Nested Window
>> Network Diagnostics
>> Performance Monitor
>> Printer Queue Monitor
>> Switch User (aka New Login)
>> System Log Viewer
>> Terminal
>>
>> Cheeri,
>> Calum.
>>
>> --
>> CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
>> mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
>> http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771
>>
>> Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun
>> Microsystems
>>
>>
>

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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Joerg Barfurth
Joerg.Barfurth@Sun.COM
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 6:34 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Calum Benson wrote:

> "Current user" config:
>
> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
>

So should there be a GUI to help invoke it as root ?


> "Computer" config:
>

> StarOffice Printer Admin (can't remember whether you can run this as
> non-root or not...
> won't run for me at all just now)


You can run this both as non-root for yourself and as root for all users.

-- Joerg

--
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Software Engineer mailto:joerg dot barfurth at sun dot com
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 7:14 AM   in response to: Joerg Barfurth

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 14 Mar 2006, at 14:34, Joerg Barfurth wrote:

> Calum Benson wrote:
>
>> "Current user" config:
>> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
>
> So should there be a GUI to help invoke it as root ?

Good question. For this sort of app on Linux, we pop up a dialog
that allows you to either enter an an administrative password, or
continue with your current privileges. I'll have to check whether
we're porting this behaviour to Solaris.

>> "Computer" config:
>
>> StarOffice Printer Admin (can't remember whether you can run
>> this as non-root or not...
>> won't run for me at all just now)
>
>
> You can run this both as non-root for yourself and as root for all
> users.

Ok, thanks... need to think about that one a bit more as well, then.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

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Joerg Barfurth
Joerg.Barfurth@Sun.COM
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 7:42 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Calum Benson wrote:

>>> "Current user" config:
>>> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
>>
>> So should there be a GUI to help invoke it as root ?
>
> Good question. For this sort of app on Linux, we pop up a dialog that
> allows you to either enter an an administrative password, or continue
> with your current privileges. I'll have to check whether we're porting
> this behaviour to Solaris.
>

I believe "an administrative password" means one for the root account.

I don't think we should port that to Solaris as is. There we have a
continuum of setups between 'basic user' and 'root'.

Maybe on Solaris we should only have a choice whether to run or pfexec
such an app? Or simply another menu item that pfexec's it? It gets more
complicated when you try to support roles (including, possibly, root).
Because then you not only need 'an' administrative password, but also a
way to specify the role to which it applies. Maybe we can at least
enumerate all available roles instead of requiring manual input.

So there is a choice: either have a simpler interface that requires
profiles to be assigned directly to the user (which reduces security) or
incorporate role support at the price of a UI which is even more complex
than the "administrative password" one on Linux.

FWIW: Most "run as" GUIs suck, IMHO. (At least those I've seen)

-- Joerg

--
Joerg Barfurth phone: +49 40 23646662 / x66662
Software Engineer mailto:joerg dot barfurth at sun dot com
Desktop Technology http://reserv.ireland/twiki/bin/view/Argus/
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 8:30 AM   in response to: Joerg Barfurth

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 14 Mar 2006, at 15:42, Joerg Barfurth wrote:

> Calum Benson wrote:
>
>>>> "Current user" config:
>>>> Shared Folders (could affect all users if run as root, though)
>>>
>>> So should there be a GUI to help invoke it as root ?
>> Good question. For this sort of app on Linux, we pop up a dialog
>> that allows you to either enter an an administrative password, or
>> continue with your current privileges. I'll have to check whether
>> we're porting this behaviour to Solaris.
>
> I believe "an administrative password" means one for the root account.

Yes, for Linux it does... I appreciate that we have a more
sophisticated requirement in Solaris, which is why I deliberately
avoided saying "root password" :)

> So there is a choice: either have a simpler interface that requires
> profiles to be assigned directly to the user (which reduces
> security) or incorporate role support at the price of a UI which is
> even more complex than the "administrative password" one on Linux.
>
> FWIW: Most "run as" GUIs suck, IMHO. (At least those I've seen)

Care to explain why, so we can avoid making the same mistake?

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 14, 2006 7:10 PM   in response to: Joerg Barfurth

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hello Joel,

> I don't think we should port that to Solaris as is. There we have a
> continuum of setups between 'basic user' and 'root'.
>
> Maybe on Solaris we should only have a choice whether to run or pfexec
> such an app? Or simply another menu item that pfexec's it? It gets more
> complicated when you try to support roles (including, possibly, root).
> Because then you not only need 'an' administrative password, but also a
> way to specify the role to which it applies. Maybe we can at least
> enumerate all available roles instead of requiring manual input.

Can you give a little more background on what you are speaking about
here? I assume you aren't speaking about Trusted Solaris details, are
you (though, that's perhaps relevant too). I'm poking at bit at "man
profiles(1)", but it assume I have knowledge that I don't have. What's
the right entrypoint for this wad of knowledge?

david


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Joerg Barfurth
Joerg.Barfurth@Sun.COM
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 15, 2006 12:46 AM   in response to: davidjon

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

David-John Burrowes wrote:
> Hello Joel,

Make that "Jörg" - or "Joerg" when umlauts are not readily available :-o

>> I don't think we should port that to Solaris as is. There we have a
>> continuum of setups between 'basic user' and 'root'.
>>
>> Maybe on Solaris we should only have a choice whether to run or pfexec
>> such an app? Or simply another menu item that pfexec's it? It gets more
>> complicated when you try to support roles (including, possibly, root).
>> Because then you not only need 'an' administrative password, but also a
>> way to specify the role to which it applies. Maybe we can at least
>> enumerate all available roles instead of requiring manual input.
>
> Can you give a little more background on what you are speaking about
> here? I assume you aren't speaking about Trusted Solaris details, are
> you (though, that's perhaps relevant too).

No.

> I'm poking at bit at "man
> profiles(1)", but it assume I have knowledge that I don't have. What's
> the right entrypoint for this wad of knowledge?
>

The best ones are probably [1] and [2] from docs.sun.com.

If you prefer man pages, you should look at

pfexec(1),
prof_attr(4), exec_attr(4), user_attr(4),
profiles(1), auths(1), roles(1),
ppriv(1), privileges(5)

but I'm not sure what would be the best entry point.

[1] Solaris 10 System Administration Guide: Security Services
<http://
[2] Solaris 10 Solaris Security for Developers Guide
Chapter 2: Developing Privileged Applications
<http://

HTH, Joerg

--
Joerg Barfurth phone: +49 40 23646662 / x66662
Software Engineer mailto:joerg dot barfurth at sun dot com
Desktop Technology
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davidjon

Posts: 61
From: Menlo Park, California, USA

Registered: 1/18/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Mar 15, 2006 8:05 AM   in response to: Joerg Barfurth

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hello Jörg,

>> Hello Joel,
>
> Make that "Jörg" - or "Joerg" when umlauts are not readily
> available :-o

Blush! Clearly I replied too quickly! My apologies to you!

>> I'm poking at bit at "man
>> profiles(1)", but it assume I have knowledge that I don't have.
>> What's
>> the right entrypoint for this wad of knowledge?
>
> The best ones are probably [1] and [2] from docs.sun.com.
>
> If you prefer man pages, you should look at
>
> pfexec(1),
> prof_attr(4), exec_attr(4), user_attr(4),
> profiles(1), auths(1), roles(1),
> ppriv(1), privileges(5)
>
> but I'm not sure what would be the best entry point.
>
> [1] Solaris 10 System Administration Guide: Security Services
> <http://
> [2] Solaris 10 Solaris Security for Developers Guide
> Chapter 2: Developing Privileged Applications
> <http://


Thanks for the references!

David (or, perhaps "Derek" :-)



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vthiru

Posts: 6
From:

Registered: 3/19/06
Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 20, 2006 11:17 PM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Guys, I deal with fresh installs of Solaris 10 very often, and I have these two suggestions:

1. Move the "Run application" to the same place as windows has it... actually it might be good to mirror windows' structure to make it easier for users to transition. I often find myself hovering above the area where windows "Run command" would be before I realize I'm in JDS

2. Have a launcher for the terminal somewhere very quickly reachable. Having to hunt for it in Applications>Utilities>Terminal is pretty silly. Newbies won't know where to look. This is unix and I want my terminal :) Often the first thing I do after logging into JDS for the first time is drag and drop that icon onto the task bar for a launcher. Another thing I do on desktops I use everyday is bind a keyboard shortcut to open up a terminal.

3. They common keyboard shortcuts for switching virtual displays in Linux doesn't work in JDS. Would be nice.

4. We need some progress indicator to show that a program is being launched. Currently you can click on a launcher, nothing happens, so you click a few times still nothing, then boom! all the windows appear. A cursor indicator such as hourglass or bouncy icon KDE (Mac OS?) would be nice.

V. Thiru
Sun Solution Centre
Sydney

vthiru

Posts: 6
From:

Registered: 3/19/06
Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 20, 2006 11:22 PM   in response to: vthiru

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Another couple of suggestions for issues I often encounter:

1. Include reboot/shutdown items in the menu, at least for the root user. If not the root user, check if it is a local login (not over X), then prompt user for root password.

2. Include menu items for reboot and shutdown in dtlogin. If a user has access to the login manager then he probably has access to the box and it's power switch. Prompt to make sure. Maybe require the root password.

calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 21, 2006 3:23 AM   in response to: vthiru

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 21 Apr 2006, at 07:22, Vaenthan Thiru wrote:

> Another couple of suggestions for issues I often encounter:
>
> 1. Include reboot/shutdown items in the menu, at least for the
> root user. If not the root user, check if it is a local login (not
> over X), then prompt user for root password.

This is currently configurable in GDM's configuration file (on for
all users, or off for all users). The UI spec suggests it would be
better if access was role-based (in addition to the master on/off
setting), which I guess is similar to your suggestion.

Brian tried to get us to tell him how we wanted it to work (as he's
the community maintainer too), but we never really finished that
conversation :/

> 2. Include menu items for reboot and shutdown in dtlogin.

Again, if you use GDM, you'll see these if the relevant option is set
in the configuration file. I'm not sure what the situation is with
dtlogin though.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 21, 2006 3:19 AM   in response to: vthiru

  Click to reply to this thread Reply


On 21 Apr 2006, at 07:17, Vaenthan Thiru wrote:

> Guys, I deal with fresh installs of Solaris 10 very often, and I
> have these two suggestions:
>
> 1. Move the "Run application" to the same place as windows has
> it... actually it might be good to mirror windows' structure to
> make it easier for users to transition. I often find myself
> hovering above the area where windows "Run command" would be before
> I realize I'm in JDS

Hmm, that's where it was in the original draft, but one of our other
UI guys suggested we move it to the Applications menu :) I can
certainly see your point, though... any other opinions?

> 2. Have a launcher for the terminal somewhere very quickly
> reachable. Having to hunt for it in
> Applications>Utilities>Terminal is pretty silly. Newbies won't
> know where to look.

Currently, you can also right-click on the desktop, and there's an
"open terminal" option there.

When drafting the UI spec, we were also considering adding Terminal
to the quick-launch area of the Launch menu, as that would be
consistent with the other things in the "Preferred Applications"
control panel, which are shown there by default. We didn't reach a
conclusion on that, though, so I'll consider your comment a "+1" for
that idea :)

Even if we don't put it there by default, it should be a simple
matter of checking a box to put it there, if we implement the
proposed additions to the Preferred Applications panel:

http://www.gnome.org/~calum/nevada/ui-spec/apps.htm


> This is unix and I want my terminal :) Often the first thing I
> do after logging into JDS for the first time is drag and drop that
> icon onto the task bar for a launcher.

> Another thing I do on desktops I use everyday is bind a keyboard
> shortcut to open up a terminal.

We could certainly do that by default. As a matter of interest, what
shortcut do you use?

> 3. They common keyboard shortcuts for switching virtual displays
> in Linux doesn't work in JDS. Would be nice.

Virtual displays are disabled in Solaris because they were considered
insecure, but I believe we're fixing that.

> 4. We need some progress indicator to show that a program is being
> launched. Currently you can click on a launcher, nothing happens,
> so you click a few times still nothing, then boom! all the windows
> appear. A cursor indicator such as hourglass or bouncy icon KDE
> (Mac OS?) would be nice.

Hmm, this (mostly) works on Linux, but it does seem broken on
Solaris. I'll file a bug when I get a chance, but feel free to do so
first :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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alanc

Posts: 5,504
From: US

Registered: 3/9/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 21, 2006 8:16 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Calum Benson wrote:
>> 3. They common keyboard shortcuts for switching virtual displays in
>> Linux doesn't work in JDS. Would be nice.
>
> Virtual displays are disabled in Solaris because they were considered
> insecure, but I believe we're fixing that.

No, they're disabled in JDS/Linux because they were considered insecure.
They're disabled in Solaris because the kernel simply doesn't support
them. The kernel console team is working on adding them.

--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 21, 2006 8:27 AM   in response to: alanc

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 08:16 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Calum Benson wrote:
> >> 3. They common keyboard shortcuts for switching virtual displays in
> >> Linux doesn't work in JDS. Would be nice.
> >
> > Virtual displays are disabled in Solaris because they were considered
> > insecure, but I believe we're fixing that.
>
> No, they're disabled in JDS/Linux because they were considered insecure.
> They're disabled in Solaris because the kernel simply doesn't support
> them. The kernel console team is working on adding them.

Oops, quite right of course. (Although they've actually been enabled
out of the box in any version of JDS/Linux I've ever used, which is what
confused me...)

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Group
http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems

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alanc

Posts: 5,504
From: US

Registered: 3/9/05
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 21, 2006 11:34 AM   in response to: calumb

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Calum Benson wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 08:16 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> Calum Benson wrote:
>>>> 3. They common keyboard shortcuts for switching virtual displays in
>>>> Linux doesn't work in JDS. Would be nice.
>>> Virtual displays are disabled in Solaris because they were considered
>>> insecure, but I believe we're fixing that.
>> No, they're disabled in JDS/Linux because they were considered insecure.
>> They're disabled in Solaris because the kernel simply doesn't support
>> them. The kernel console team is working on adding them.
>
> Oops, quite right of course. (Although they've actually been enabled
> out of the box in any version of JDS/Linux I've ever used, which is what
> confused me...)

Right - disabling them was done in one of the last Cinnabar builds before
the JDS/Linux project was shelved.

--
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Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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vthiru

Posts: 6
From:

Registered: 3/19/06
Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 1:36 AM   in response to: alanc

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

Hi guys,

my shortcut for terminal is ctrl+` (tilde). When you're in bash, you can type ctrl+C in the middle of typing a command to abort it, and ctrl+D to end your bash session and close the terminal. Makes things a bit faster. ^_^

Also, I think you guys are getting Virtual Consoles and Virtual Displays/Desktops mixed up (hopefully I've got the terminology correct). Virtual consoles are the text-mode screens that Solaris doesn't have kernel support for at the moment. (In linux, Ctrl+Alt+Fx to switch VCs) When I said virtual displays I meant the desktop switcher desktops. (In linux (KDE), Ctrl+Fx to switch). Should just be a matter of key binding.

Thiru

calumb

Posts: 986
From: IE

Registered: 7/14/05
Re: Re: Re: JDS UI spec for OpenSolaris
Posted: Apr 24, 2006 10:48 AM   in response to: vthiru

  Click to reply to this thread Reply

On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 01:36 -0700, Vaenthan Thiru wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> my shortcut for terminal is ctrl+` (tilde). When you're in bash, you can type ctrl+C in the middle of typing a command to abort it, and ctrl+D to end your bash session and close the terminal. Makes things a bit faster. ^_^
>
> Also, I think you guys are getting Virtual Consoles and Virtual
> Displays/Desktops mixed up (hopefully I've got the terminology
> correct). Virtual consoles are the text-mode screens that Solaris
> doesn't have kernel support for at the moment. (In linux, Ctrl+Alt+Fx
> to switch VCs) When I said virtual displays I meant the desktop
> switcher desktops. (In linux (KDE), Ctrl+Fx to switch). Should just
> be a matter of key binding.

Ah yes, my mistake, sorry... I'm too used to calling those
"workspaces" :)

You're right, we currently only define Ctrl-Alt-arrows by default, to
switch back and forth between workspaces. We've never shipped JDS with
any shortcuts to jump directly to a specific workspace, but we could
certainly consider it.

Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Group
http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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